CATEGORY:
FQXi Essay Contest - Is Reality Digital or Analog?
[back]
TOPIC:
In Search of Continuity: Thoughts of an Epistemic Empiricist by Ian Durham
[refresh]
Author Ian Durham wrote on Feb. 14, 2011 @ 15:45 GMT
Essay AbstractIs the universe digital or analog? In this essay I argue that both classical and quantum physics include limits that prevent us from definitively answering that question. That quantum physics does so is no surprise. That classical physics does so is rather unexpected. In fact, I argue that classical physics is itself really nothing more than a convenient approximation. Either way, it turns out that our knowledge of the universe is discrete and so it is extraordinarily difficult, perhaps even impossible, to determine the underlying continuity of the universe itself.
Author BioIan Durham is Associate Professor and Chair of the Department of Physics at Saint Anselm College in Manchester, New Hampshire. He is the founding editor of the American Physical Society's _The Quantum Times_ and is a member of FQXi. This essay is dedicated to his father-in-law who passed away quite suddenly as the essay was being completed.
Download Essay PDF File
report post as inappropriate
James Putnam wrote on Feb. 14, 2011 @ 23:23 GMT
Dear Dr. Ian Durham,
Very well written essay. I have a question. I agree that our knowledge is discrete. I would be interested in your opinion about this viewpoint: I think the reason is that, as I see it, mathematics is the art of providing shortcuts to counting. We must count things. For example we count both points and lines. However, we cannot count what a line is. The line is continuous. There is nothing internal to it for us to count. It can be approximated as a near infinite series of points. But, that practice reveals our limitations and not those of reality. In other words, mathematics can never be used to describe an analog nature. Furthermore, this limitation of ours causes us to theoretically see discreteness and not continuity.
We imagine continuity. We visualize continuity. If we cannot learn that which has never been made known to us, then, our ability to think continuity comes from an analog property of the universe. Is mathematics misguiding us about the nature of the universe? I am not considering the interpretations that we assign to the properties that we believe ourselves to be counting. I am thinking only about an inherent limitation of the process of counting and its substitutes.
Your professional analysis is appreciated. Please use this as an opportunity to expand upon your essay.
James
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham wrote on Feb. 15, 2011 @ 00:46 GMT
Thanks James. I like your insight, though I disagree (which isn't to say either one of us is right or wrong). I'm a mathematician in addition to being a physicist and I think mathematics does a perfectly suitable job handling continuity. It is when it is applied to reality that things get all muddled.
There's a lot of interesting work out there on this problem of continuity purely from the mathematical point-of-view (which is why I say either of us could be right - the matter is far from settled despite what most mathematicians might think). Strichartz in his Way of Analysis does an interesting job of "defining" the real numbers and in the process defining what mathematical continuity is (he is basically giving the standard view as derived from Cauchy and Weierstrass). It is admittedly quite appealing and worth a read and I will confess to teaching from this point-of-view when I teach analysis. But I still find it troubling when we start to use real objects instead of mathematical abstractions.
This, of course, brings up the whole question of the ontological status of mathematical objects (abstractions) themselves. I suppose that is an entirely different discussion.
Ian
report post as inappropriate
Lev Goldfarb wrote on Feb. 15, 2011 @ 02:25 GMT
Hi Ian,
In my essay I have explained that "discrete" means simply non-continuous, while "continuous" we know only from the mathematical models. So in which sense are you using these terms?
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 16, 2011 @ 20:23 GMT
Hi Lev,
I'm not sure I understand the second part of your comment - unless, of course, you agree with my conclusion (continuity is merely a mathematical "ruse").
But I take "discrete" to be the opposite of continuous. In my essay I hint at (and would have expanded on, given more space) the fact that there are different notions of these things - some mathematical, some physical.
Ian
report post as inappropriate
Lev Goldfarb replied on Feb. 16, 2011 @ 23:12 GMT
Yes, Ian, I agree.
But the situation with the "discrete" is quite different: first of all, we don't have a definitive concept/model of the discrete, and second, I believe, when we get one, it will not be the same mathematical "ruse".
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 18, 2011 @ 04:01 GMT
Maybe. I mean, I think I see where you're going, but it's quite a novel idea, if I'm understanding you correctly.
Personally, I don't think discreteness is a "mathematical ruse." I only think that about continuity. Or, rather, I think our knowledge about the continuity of the universe itself is a mathematical ruse. It is entirely possible that the universe *is* continuous, but we simply can't determine if it is or not because we're limited by a discrete "lens," as it were.
report post as inappropriate
Lev Goldfarb replied on Feb. 18, 2011 @ 23:30 GMT
Ian,
Also about your point that
"We're caught in a `Catch-22.' Our only recourse is to conclude that it is impossible to measure a truly instantaneous velocity."
It is impossible to measure the instantaneous velocity simply because such a thing doesn't exist in Nature: as Whitehead observed "There is no nature at an instant."
In general, there is an important discussion by Collingwood in his "The Idea of Nature" (pp.19-27) that "how the world of nature appears to us depends on how long we take to observe it". His main point (going back to Aristotle) is that every object/process takes certain time to manifest itself, and if we are not going to put in the corresponding period of time we are not going to be able to observe it. I.e. *all* objects in Nature are temporal processes, so that a truly instantaneous snapshot cannot capture anything.
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 20, 2011 @ 04:33 GMT
Lev,
Hmm. I like that. I'll have to read Collingwood.
report post as inappropriate
Eckard Blumschein replied on Mar. 14, 2011 @ 18:27 GMT
Dear Ian Durham,
My dictionary explains ruse as follows: "an action which is intended to deceive someone". As I indicated in my essay, I consider both Euclid's numbers and a Peirce's continuum ideals that may approximate features but cannot exactly be found in nature. Who deceives whom?
Sincerely,
Eckard
report post as inappropriate
hide replies
Alan Lowey wrote on Feb. 15, 2011 @ 11:19 GMT
Hi Ian, you sound like an intelligent guy who's mathematically minded so I want to put to you this quandry regarding another ancient Greek:
Newton's inability to consider a particle model for the force of gravity has left a legacy where the ideology of a spacetime continuum has been set in stone. His equation negates the possiblity of a particle for the force of gravity. If he had considered the Archimedes screw as a GRAVITON he would have included an element of ORIENTATION in his simplistic equation, wouldn't he?
Best wishes,
Alan
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 16, 2011 @ 20:24 GMT
Hmmm. Why does his equation negate a particle model for gravity? Coulomb's law is similar and yet we have a very successful particle model for electrostatics.
report post as inappropriate
Alan Lowey replied on Feb. 21, 2011 @ 12:23 GMT
Hi Ian, his declaration of universality or put simply "every object attracts every other object equally in all directions" is a BIG assumption which is then set in stone within his gravity equation. No wonder it can't be reconciled with particle based QM! Why did no-one at the time of Newton consider the
Archimedes screw as a mechanical method for explaining the force of gravity, his spooky action at a distance?? The history of science would have been very different if someone had imo! Best wishes, Alan
report post as inappropriate
Alan Lowey replied on Feb. 23, 2011 @ 17:11 GMT
Hi Ian, I'd just like to re-iterate my point about a spinning helix which travels around a hypersphere being analogous to an electric circuit. Imagine you are on the inside of a battery which is connected to a simple loop of wire which makes an electric circuit. Imagine a handle rotates clockwise from the positive terminal as seen from your internal perspective. Now trace this turning handle as it travels along the wire and arrives at the negative terminal of the battery. Which way is the handle now turning from the viewpoint of the battery's interior? Is it clockwise or is it anti-clockwise?
The thought experiment illustrates the important relationship between chirality, loops and mirror images. Incidentally, I learnt from a repeat of QI on TV last night about oranges and lemons. The aroma of a lemon is the exact mirror image of an orange and vice versa. Our olfactory sense, the first one to develop via evolution I believe, is ultra sensitive to right and left handedness of airborne molecules, which I find quite interesting.
Kind regards, Alan
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 26, 2011 @ 15:37 GMT
Hi Alan,
Very interesting concept, but I still don't see why his theory of gravity is any different in that sense from electrostatics. In other words, just because he worded it in a certain way doesn't automatically make it incompatible with a particle model. It certainly could have affected the interpretation historically, but it doesn't a priori rule out a particle interpretation.
Ian
P.S. Fascinating bit on oranges and lemons.
report post as inappropriate
Alan Lowey replied on Mar. 15, 2011 @ 17:21 GMT
Hi Ian,
Okay, that's a good point about the similarity with electrostatics, which I've just thought about a bit more. The difference is that Coulombs law assumes "charged" particles, so that they come in two opposite types. Electric charge is a physical property of matter which causes it to experience a force when near other electrically charged matter. The way these two types interact hasn't been modelled by mechnical means, just like gravity itself. Why do like charges attract and opposites repell? The mechanism is an enigma.
If a 'fabric' of spacetime is visualised as the 'mechanism' of gravity, then this fabric is uniform and symmetrical. It therefore can't be the cause of the elctrostatic forces. His equation therefore negates gravity as being behind the eletrostatic force. It therefore renders the unification of all the forces an impossiblity. Therefore his equation must be wrong imo.
Best wishes,
Alan
report post as inappropriate
Eckard Blumschein replied on Mar. 15, 2011 @ 17:46 GMT
Alan wrote:
"Why do like charges attract and opposites repell? The mechanism is an enigma."
Electrical charges of equal sign repel each other as also do equal magnetic poles. Hence the magnetic north pole of earth is located at the geographic south pole. Isn't there a quite simple explanation for this "enigma"? Separation of opposite charges stores potential energy.
Eckard
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 20, 2011 @ 01:15 GMT
Hmm. Doesn't QED offer a fairly reasonable explanation of how charges attract and repel?
report post as inappropriate
hide replies
Mike wrote on Feb. 15, 2011 @ 19:30 GMT
Ian,
Enjoyed the essay. As previously posted on your blog, I think that David Deutsch generally has the right approach to this question. In short, he thinks that “within each universe all observable quantities are discrete, but the multiverse as a whole is a continuum. When the equations of quantum theory describe a continuous but not-directly-observable transition between two values of a discrete quantity, what they are telling us is that the transition does not take place entirely within one universe. So perhaps the price of continuous motion is not an infinity of consecutive actions, but an infinity of concurrent actions taking place across the multiverse.”
Sorry to hear about your father-in-law. These things are always difficult. All the best to your and your family.
Mike
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 16, 2011 @ 20:26 GMT
Thanks Mike. It was quite a shock and we're still grappling with it (especially my kids who were very close to their "opa").
Anyway, as you well know I'm not a huge fan of the multiverse concept so I'm not sure Deutsch's argument resonates with me, but I believe I said something similar on my blog.
Nevertheless, it's good to have healthy debate on the issue!
report post as inappropriate
Anonymous wrote on Feb. 15, 2011 @ 23:52 GMT
Dr. Durham
Hi. I thought your essay was very good. In regard to your point about the overuse of mathematics as a means of interpreting physical processes, I totally agree and would like to add a related point about infinite sets in relation to physics:
The main issue I have with measuring the size of an infinite subset relative to the size of the set from which it was extracted relates to my background in biochemistry and is as follows. Mathematicians say that if you start with a single, initial set of all the positive integers and then pull out the subset of even integers and pair off the evens in the subset one-to-one with all the integers in the initial set, then you can see that because of the one-to-one correspondence, the number of elements in the subset is the same as in the original set. This is a thought experiment, but it is still an experiment and should use proper experimental technique. However, the pairing off method uses very bad experimental technique, I think. That is, the system to be studied is the single original set of all the positive integers. The experimental processing is pulling out the subset and pairing it off with the elements in the original set. The results from this experimental processing on two separate sets (ie, equal set sizes) are then assumed to be the same as in the original single set. This is similar to studying the interactions of a cell nucleus with the rest of the cell (ie, the cytoplasm) by pulling out the
nucleus, putting it in a separate test tube from the rest of the cell,
studying it there and assuming the results of the processed, separate
nucleus-cytoplasm systems are the same as in the single, whole cell. They may be but often are not, and so this assumption could be totally incorrect. These types of assumptions are not tolerated in biochemistry because it's well known that processing can create the possibility of experimental
artifacts (errors introduced by processing), which means that the results after processing don't reflect the situation in the original system. This bad experimental technique shouldn't be acceptable in mathematics either. Even if you say that mathematics is in its own abstract realm, it's also still used in the physical realm of physics. Its use of bad experimental method makes the use of infinities in physics problematic, IMHO.
I also address the role of infinite sets in physics in the second part of my FQXi assay ("Reality is digital, but its perception as digital or analog depends on the perspective of the observer").
Any feedback you may have would be welcome. Once again, very nice essay!
Roger Granet
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 16, 2011 @ 20:30 GMT
Thanks Roger.
I guess I don't have a problem with "bad experimental technique" in mathematics because, to me, mathematics is not an experimental science. I think our mistake is in assuming that mathematics represents some kind of universal "truth." I have no trouble accepting the fact that we can have infinitely countable and uncountable sets and other oddities in mathematics. Mathematics is either right or wrong, in a sense. It's more black and white than science which is fine. We just have to remember that science is about modeling and sometimes our models contradict one another. Mathematics, unlike science, is entirely self-consistent.
Ian
report post as inappropriate
Juan R. González-Álvarez wrote on Feb. 16, 2011 @ 13:14 GMT
Dear Ian T. Durham,
I have loved your discussion of infinitesimals. Effectively, those exotic objects have evaded mathematicians during three centuries, giving a long controversy, which is still open!
You cite Robinson's work on "Non-standard analysis"; but, as you must know, this modern analysis has received criticism by other mathematicians. For instance, Connes is trying to obtain...
view entire post
Dear Ian T. Durham,
I have loved your discussion of infinitesimals. Effectively, those exotic objects have evaded mathematicians during three centuries, giving a long controversy, which is still open!
You cite Robinson's work on "Non-standard analysis"; but, as you must know, this modern analysis has received criticism by other mathematicians. For instance, Connes is trying to obtain a rationalization of infinitesimals using non-commutative geometry due to certain limitations of the non-standard analysis.
By a lack of space I did not discuss those interesting issues in my Essay. I met with the problem of the infinitesimals, when first tried to obtain a rigorous explanation for the neglect of second order corrections in the quanta n^(plusminus) in the canonical form, when deriving the results of classical physics. For instance, consider an elementary process describing the transport of energy between systems A and B (page 4 in my
Essay). If the transport of energy is infinitesimal then the terms quadratic in epsilon are zero and one recovers the classical laws.
Time ago I named this "epsilon-calculus", although currently it is only a rule of thumb for our scientific applications and nothing that mathematicians would consider. Somehow as Max Planck used the concept of infinitesimal in his books in theoretical mechanics, although mathematicians considered his concept without mathematical meaning.
The problem is in finding an object epsilon different from zero but with (epsilon)^2 being zero. There is not real or complex number with those properties! Robinson want to characterize the infinitesimals using the new category of non-standard numbers, but if epsilon is a non-standard infinitesimal, then (epsilon)^2 is not zero, but a higher order infinitesimal. Another possibility could be the dual numbers and the Grassmann numbers, that have the property that their square is zero, but I have not studied this enough.
In practice, I merely take 'infinitesimals' to be very small real or complex numbers such that the squares are so small that cannot be measured in the lab. This is enough for practical applications and, at this point, I agree with you. However, time (fundamental time) is a different concept and a correct understanding of the (t --> t + dt) will need of a careful consideration of those mathematical issues.
I would like to comment the part where you discuss uncertainty relationships for light. You say that when Dt --> 0, "the time-energy uncertainty relation prevents us [...] from measuring the velocity of the object". But for a photon (Dx = c Dt) and the ratio Dx/Dt is well defined in the limit when Dt --> 0, giving the instantaneous speed of the photon. It is true that the relativistic uncertainty relations introduces a lower limit for t as a function of the uncertainty in momentum Dp, but the same limit is also introduced for x, and since the speed of the photon is a constant, both the average speed and the instantaneous speed coincide. In the classical limit the uncertainties go to zero (h --> 0), but we obtain the same speed: c.
Of course, we do not really measure what you call the "truly" instantaneous velocities, but neither we measure "truly" temperatures, "truly" electric currents, "truly" masses... For instance, suppose that the temperature of an object is T, when we place a thermometer in thermal contact the temperature of the system changes from (T --> T' = T + DT), where DT is the perturbation introduced by the thermometer. The goal is that if the thermometer is small enough when compared with the system size then T' will be near enough to T and can take T' as the temperature of the system. Indeed, one of the design goal of thermometers is to achieve the smallest possible size.
I fail to see why you consider that limitations in measurements imply that "our knowledge of the universe is discontinuous". Those limitations of our laboratories are with us since the very start of science, and all the classical physics, including its experimental branch has always been a science of the continuum.
You write "In fact it is doubtful, despite de Broglie's contention, that anyone prior to the twentieth century truly believed in a discontinuous universe, though they may have pondered the possibility". It is very difficult to accept that the chemists who developed the atomic theory of matter in the 19th century truly believed in a continuum universe. In a letter to Berzelius of 1812, Dalton Wrote: "The doctrine of definite proportions appears to me mysterious unless we adopt the atomic hypothesis".
You also write that the "results from the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) have demonstrated that the geometry of the universe must be flat to better than 1%" and that "we of course have long known that it is locally curved". Well, we have also long known that spacetime is curved only in (geo)metric theories. In the so-named flat spacetime theories, e.g. the field theory of gravity (see the ref 19 in my
Essay)), gravitation has a non-geometrical interpretation.
Moreover, this small deviation from flatness of less than 1% is the crux of the famous flatness problem in cosmology. Precisely, the non-geometrical approaches to gravity promise to solve this problem in a natural way (see e.g. [Nikolic]).
It seems that your "intuitive notion that causality is somehow related to continuity" is related to my emphasis on that fundamental time is a continuous quantity, unlike dimensional time, which can be discrete.
You write: "By quantizing fields we have seemingly turned something inherently continuous and non-localized into something discrete and localized". Precisely the quantum field theory suffers from the problem of localization, which obligated to physicists to introduce the concept of dummy spacetime. In quantum field theory, we no more can say where a particle "is" in spacetime. As emphasized by Sakurai in his well-known textbook: "It is important to note that the x and t that appear in the quantized field A(x,t) are not quantum-mechanical variables but just parameters on which the field operator depends. In particular, x and t should not be regarded as the space-time coordinates of the photon". See references 4-6 cited in my Essay for more technical details.
You continue with "To be clear, quantum electrodynamics, which is a quantum field theory, is the most accurate scientific theory ever developed, agreeing with experiment to within ten parts in a billion (10^−8)". The experimental support of quantum electrodynamics is excellent but it must be put in a right context. In the reference 6 in my Essay, I wrote: "Four main remarks may be done about the relativistic experiments and observations: (i) Precision tests of relativistic quantum electrodynamics are not normally carried out by directly comparing observations and experimental results to its theoretical predictions; (ii) the same tests are satisfied by formulations of relativistic quantum electrodynamics that are mutually incompatible between them; (iii) the experiments and observations only consider a very limited subset of phenomena; and (iv) both relativistic quantum electrodynamics and the relativistic quantum field theory are involved, at least indirectly, in some puzzling observations and glaring discrepancies". And then analyzed each remark by separate in the following two pages.
And then you add "But, ultimately, quantum field theory is built on quantum mechanics just as classical field theory is naturally consistent with classical mechanics". Well I opened the second section in my
Essay, with a quote by Paul Dirac stating his dissatisfaction because quantum electrodynamics is not compatible with quantum mechanics. Several textbooks in quantum field theory emphasize some of the differences with quantum mechanics. In my Essay, I cited the standard textbook by Mandl and Shaw, but there is more.
You also write "Our only other recourse, then, is to assume that mathematical 'objects' have some kind of ontological status. The problem with this view is that there is no way to prove the ontological status of a mathematical object (one could always argue it is simply a representation of a physical object and is thus of a wholly different nature)". I think that would be good to emphasize here Feynman views in his celebrated course in Physics with Leighton, and Sands. They illustrated, in a marvelous form, the difference between physical reality and the mathematical objects used to represent them under certain conditions/approximations. One of their examples was about the difference between the physics of light and Euclidean geometry, which is very relevant to your own discussion of Euclidean geometry and radar guns.
In the last part of your Essay you write: "Classical physics, with its inherent continuity, is nothing more than a convenient myth. It's a nice approximation that works just fine when we don't look too closely". I think that this is a reflect of the traditional epistemological approach to physical reality, where science is perceived as a sequence of approximations to one supposed fundamental true.
Classical physics is not a myth, but a genuine branch of physics. From a purely theoretical point of view, classical physics would be considered a limiting case (h --> 0) of the underlying quantum physics. From an experimental point of view, classical physics is equivalent to quantum physics in those cases where the difference between both is less than the experimental error. In this modern epistemology, the word "approximation" would be used only for the cases where the difference is detectable.
[Nikolic] Some Remarks on a Nongeometrical Interpretation of Gravity and the Flatness Problem 1999: Gen. Rel. and Grav., 31(8), 1211-1217. Nikolic, Hrvoje.
view post as summary
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 16, 2011 @ 21:11 GMT
Juan,
Thanks for your comments. I have a few replies.
First, regarding Robinson, I certainly am no fan of his and I did not cite him in such a way as to say I supported his conclusion. I simply cited him in order to point out that someone had attempted to "vindicate" Newton and Leibniz in recent decades.
I agree that time is a complicated and funky problem (and I'm looking...
view entire post
Juan,
Thanks for your comments. I have a few replies.
First, regarding Robinson, I certainly am no fan of his and I did not cite him in such a way as to say I supported his conclusion. I simply cited him in order to point out that someone had attempted to "vindicate" Newton and Leibniz in recent decades.
I agree that time is a complicated and funky problem (and I'm looking forward to the FQXi conference in August when we'll be discussing the nature of time in greater detail).
Here is what I mean about the uncertainty relations when applied to a radar gun. A radar gun relies on a measurable change in the wavelength of the light it emits and then reabsorbs. Since the wavelength is directly related to the energy, as Delta t goes to zero, Delta E must go to infinity by the uncertainty relation. But Delta E *can't* be infinite if the radar gun is to work (it *must* be finite). Therefore, Delta t must have a non-zero lower bound.
One of my points is that if we tried to truly measure quantities exactly and in a truly continuous manner, we need to have more and more accurate measurements. But as we make more and more accurate measurements, we eventually leave the classical realm and end up in the quantum realm and the quantum realm is constrained by the uncertainty relations. This limits our knowledge to discrete "chunks." So our knowledge of the universe is limited to discrete "chunks."
As for the old chemists, they certainly may have believed in the discrete nature of matter, but did they necessarily think that the universe itself was necessarily discrete? I seriously doubt that. The atomic hypothesis applies to matter. I am unaware of it having been applied to the universe as a whole by anyone between the Ancient Greeks and the twentieth (maybe late nineteenth?) century.
Regarding the non-geometric interpretation of gravity, while there certainly are non-geometric interpretations of gravity, they are by no means mainstream. The geometric interpretation of gravity has been the paradigm since Einstein. Nevertheless, I certainly was not defending that interpretation. In fact, that was my point. I don't like that interpretation because it is difficult to reconcile with quantization (despite what the field theorists think).
I am familiar with how quantum field theory handles quantization and localization. In fact there is a rich history of foundational discussions surrounding this but, alas, I was limited to 25000 characters and I know how Dirac viewed it. But it is still a fact that QFT is built on top of QM and thus includes its postulates and thus its limitations, i.e., as different as they may be, they do *not* contradict one another.
You say, "I think that this is a reflect of the traditional epistemological approach to physical reality, where science is perceived as a sequence of approximations to one supposed fundamental true." I don't know if I agree that what I'm saying is necessarily a reflection of this. In fact, assuming that classical physics is just an approximation and that the world is really quantum only seems to allow for *multiple* truths, in my opinion. After all, the quantum world is a strange place.
The reason I say classical physics is a "myth" is because as soon as you start to make classical measurements more and more accurate (to more and more decimal places) you will eventually bump into the quantum realm. In other words, you can't have perfectly accurate measuring apparatuses without getting into quantum mechanics. Just think about how we "define" the meter now. It used to be a rod in Paris, but then copying it introduced small defects. The only way anyone could see to it that the meter was the same everywhere was to redefine it in such a way that it can only be measured in ways that involve quantum mechanics! (The current definition is based on the speed of light, which is classical, but all laboratory measurements of the speed of light run up against quantum uncertainties and quantum photon counting statistics.)
Ian
view post as summary
report post as inappropriate
Juan R. González-Álvarez replied on Feb. 18, 2011 @ 20:13 GMT
Dear Ian,
I am glad to see that we agree on such issues as Robinson's non-standard analysis, time, and the non-geometric interpretation of gravity. Let me to answer to some few issues.
I understood your claim on that Dt must have a non-zero lower bound. I remarked the same in my message when said that the relativistic uncertainty relations introduce such lower bound for time. Indeed,...
view entire post
Dear Ian,
I am glad to see that we agree on such issues as Robinson's non-standard analysis, time, and the non-geometric interpretation of gravity. Let me to answer to some few issues.
I understood your claim on that Dt must have a non-zero lower bound. I remarked the same in my message when said that the relativistic uncertainty relations introduce such lower bound for time. Indeed, in the reference 6 cited in my
Essay, I already stated this! The important part of my message was my remark on that the same analysis, using the relativistic uncertainty relations, introduces a lower bound for x as well, so that the ratio Dx/Dt = c is well-defined. Now since that c is a constant, it trivially follows that (Dx/Dt = dx/dt = c). In this case, the impossibility of that (Dt --> 0) does not prevent us from measuring instantaneous velocities. This was my criticism.
I continue disagreeing on that "our knowledge of the universe is limited to discrete 'chunks'". As said in my previous message, there exist limits where that discreteness is indistinguishable from a continuum. That is the true reason which classical physics and its 'old' continuum paradigm continue to work today, as well as it has done in last 300 years, for one well-known kind of systems, in despite of your knowledge of the atomic-molecular structure.
Atomic chemists of the 18th and 19th centuries inherited from Neoplatonism a series of core concepts to describe the physical universe, in particular a hierarchical structure of "levels of being", comprising the physical universe, and built over the atomic individualization of the which everything in the world is made. Recall that light, electricity, and heat were considered also substances in that epoch! And the goal of these chemists was to explain all the properties of the world from the properties of different combination of atoms. As H. Guerlac wrote in "Quantization in Chemistry": "A mathematical divisibility ad infinitum does not apply to the matter of which the world is made". I continue thinking that your Essay claim on that 'everyone' before the century 20th believed in a continuum universe is without historical basis.
You affirm that you know Dirac's view, but you continue to say that "QFT is built on top of QM" and that both do not contradict one another. This is not true, and that is the reason which Dirac emphasized his discomfort with the latter. I will repeat here part of his thoughts quoted in my Essay:
"Most physicists are very satisfied with this situation. They argue that if one has rules for doing calculations and the results agree with observation, that is all that one requires. But it is not all that one requires. One requires a single comprehensive theory applying to all physical phenomena."
Some differences between QM and QFT are emphasized in the standard textbooks in QFT like the cited in my essay. For instance in QM position is an observable, whereas in QFT it is not an observable. Evidently they contradict one another. An rigorous analysis of their (in)compatibility was done in the reference 6 cited in my Essay, with the result of that Dirac and others were confirmed.
I think that I already stated why I think that saying that "classical physics is a myth" is a complete exaggeration, and I do not see concrete argument for which I would reconsider my position.
view post as summary
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 19, 2011 @ 16:21 GMT
Juan,
I beg to disagree with you on a number of points.
First, I completely disagree with your claim that simply because c is a constant, Dx/Dt must trivially go to dx/dt. This is true *mathematically.* My point is that it makes no sense *physically.* I think I made it fairly clear *why* this makes no sense in my essay.
Now, before addressing your next points, let me first...
view entire post
Juan,
I beg to disagree with you on a number of points.
First, I completely disagree with your claim that simply because c is a constant, Dx/Dt must trivially go to dx/dt. This is true *mathematically.* My point is that it makes no sense *physically.* I think I made it fairly clear *why* this makes no sense in my essay.
Now, before addressing your next points, let me first address your comments concerning quantum mechanics and quantum field theory. You are taking the difference between the two as being a contradiction. But two things can be different and not contradict. More to the point, quantum mechanics treats time as absolute (i.e. it ignores time) much as Newtonian mechanics (NM) does and thus both are generally interested in obtaining information about positions as functions of time. In the corresponding relativistic extensions of both QM and NM, space and time are now considered together and thus we are interested in functions of position and time (together). This does not, however, mean they contradict each other. In fact, as an example, it is a rather simple affair to derive NM from GR (see for example Shutz or Misner, Thorne, & Wheeler). They can't contradict if one can be derived from the other. The uncertainty relations still hold in QFT (in fact they are sometimes invoked in order to "explain" the spontaneous pair creation).
Now, regarding the points you made regarding discreteness (atomism, or whatever), let me start by quoting from Griffiths: "In principle, the force of impact between a bat and a baseball is nothing but the combined interaction of the quarks and leptons in one with the quarks and leptons in the other." So, ultimately, our classical interactions like that between a baseball and a bat, are really the sum of a bunch of quantum interactions. As you yourself just said, "there exist limits where that discreteness is indistinguishable from a continuum." Precisely my point! That limit is the macroscopic realm of classical physics! Classical physics works because we don't look closely enough or don't care for an increase in precision! But as soon as we do, we run into discreteness. Imagine you're an engineer making a speedometer for a car. Your boss asks you to make this speedometer more precise - say to 2 decimal places. Then he/she comes back and asks you to make it accurate to 4 decimal places. Then he/she wants 6 decimal places, etc. Eventually, though you're measuring a classical value, you're going to run into a *physical* - perhaps engineering is a better term - problem of *how* to get that information from the universe! The most accurate machines are discrete! In fact, the most accurate physical theory ever developed, i.e. in which theory comes closest to experiment, is QED *which is ultimately a discrete theory!*
As for the atomic chemists, I disagree, but then I note that the difference between your view and mine is simply a matter of interpretation. I have done a lot of work on the history of science and have reached a different conclusion. But then again, I know a lot of people who disagree with Thomas Kuhn's take on the history of science (including myself) and yet others who staunchly defend him. It's hard to be "right" when talking about the history of science in such a way.
view post as summary
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 19, 2011 @ 20:37 GMT
Juan,
Let me add a few other points that just occurred to me.
I want to make it clear that it is entirely possible the universe is continuous. I'm arguing that we can't get truly continuous *knowledge* about it.
Now, my view is perhaps colored a bit by my experiences. Oddly enough, I have degrees in mathematics, physics, and engineering and was a practicing engineer for awhile before entering academia. I think it this strange combination of all three that has given me the opinion that I have. While continuous measurements sound plausible, the engineer in me wants to know how in the heck we can make something that can truly measure something continuously.
It goes back to that speedometer example again. Ask yourself this: whenever someone needs a truly accurate measure of speed, do they use an analog or a digital speedometer? How about a bathroom scale? If your response to the latter is to say we could use a traditional scale balance, I ask you what we used to accurately measure the weights we use on the balance? Another balance? And how accurate are those weights when compared with the *current* international standards for mass and local measurements of g? And I could go on asking questions like these and eventually you'd have to cite something that was quantum mechanical! Do you see my point?
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 19, 2011 @ 22:26 GMT
One final point to add: mathematics (as with logic, linguistics, and computer science) is a formal science, i.e. one that follows from stated axioms. Formal sciences, by their very nature, are entirely self-consistent. The natural (or empirical) sciences (e.g. biology, physics, chemistry, etc.) are not necessarily self-consistent, e.g. quantum mechanics and general relativity don't quite mesh.
report post as inappropriate
hide replies
Rick P wrote on Feb. 16, 2011 @ 18:54 GMT
Bang on. One was worried for a while that you weren't going to do it. But happily you did.
Another Aristotlism: "That which moves does not move by counting." Of course we can't be absolutely certain about that, but he was probably right.
Sorry about your father-in-law. I've been there.
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 16, 2011 @ 21:11 GMT
James Putnam wrote on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 21:05 GMT
Dear Dr. Ian Durham,
Could you please say something succinct to make clear why there is this distinction:
"What does it mean for something to be physically continuous? Does it mean the object can't be broken down into individual parts or does it simply mean the individual parts are intrinsically linked?
For example: A line is continuous; however, it might vary several ways in width and direction along its length. This is the simplest example I thought of to question the distinction between 'individual parts' and 'intrinsically linked'. Personally, I see the interaction of particles of matter to be analogous to, though not nearly so simple, as this example portrays.
I assume that there is a distinction that is not properly represented by my example. I would appreciate a combined mathematician's and physicists viewpoint. What do you think?
James
report post as inappropriate
James Putnam replied on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 22:52 GMT
Dear Ian,
I decided I should make it clear that I do not understand how an example of a line broken into pieces and separated completely would have any relevance to what is occurring in our universe. Any clarity that you can offer would be appreciated.
James
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 18, 2011 @ 03:57 GMT
James,
So, my statement there simply leaves open the possibility that we might be able to define some slightly different "version" of continuity. So, for instance, perhaps a pair of entangled particles, even if separated by light-years, could somehow be considered continuous. Personally, I don't think so, but I could imagine someone trying to make that argument.
Ian
report post as inappropriate
Albert wrote on Feb. 19, 2011 @ 17:06 GMT
Hello,
Interesting work but I do not agree with some of your key points.
I did not fully understand your position about Zeno's paradoxes. I also agree that we have all the mathematical answers. But I sense you tried to avoid answering directly whether
supertasks are possible in nature.
Finally, I do not agree with the following statement:
"This would seem to imply that epistemic states are ultimately discrete on some level: our knowledge of the universe is discontinuous."
It is my understanding that this essay contest deals with the ontology of spacetime, not our epistemic states. These states are modified as science progresses and new experiments are performed.
and finally I do not also agree with this statement:
"Classical physics, with its inherent continuity, is nothing more than a convenient myth."
Einstein’s Relativity is a continuous theory and actually the most successful of all times. General Relativity converges to classical Newton’s Laws at the weak field limit. I do not see this theory and its continuity as a myth. I think the myth is "it from bit". This is what we should be targeting, in my opinion of course.
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 19, 2011 @ 22:20 GMT
Actually, the most successful theory of all time, as measured by how closely it matches experiment, is QED.
"It is my understanding that this essay contest deals with the ontology of spacetime, not our epistemic states. These states are modified as science progresses and new experiments are performed."
Actually, this essay contest deals with reality. Reality is more than merely spacetime. Regardless, the point of my essay is that the epistemic states through which we access the ontology of spacetime (reality, whatever) necessarily limit the amount of knowledge we can obtain about the ontology of reality.
report post as inappropriate
Member Dean Rickles replied on Feb. 20, 2011 @ 01:19 GMT
Since Ian came to my defence on an earlier occasion, I'd like to say something here.
Albert: you claim that "Einstein’s Relativity is a continuous theory and actually the most successful of all times. General Relativity converges to classical Newton’s Laws at the weak field limit. I do not see this theory and its continuity as a myth".
Neither Ian (nor me) is saying that the theory is not continuous, but only that our knowledge of the world is discontinuous (and must always be so). This is also true of general relativity, and Einstein was aware of this. Indeed, it was just this lesson that led him away from the non-generally covariant field equations he had initially fixed on. The observable content, according to Einstein, was given by point-coincidences: only these respect the diffeomorphism invariance of the theory - the point was originally Erich Kretschmann's, but Einstein refashioned it.
The consensus still remains that something like these relational point-coincidences exhaust what is observable in GR (Bergmann, Komar, Jim Anderson, Bryce DeWitt, and a host of others worked very hard on establishing this conclusion). So even if this essay competition is about the ontology of spacetime (which it isn't), we quickly stumble into epistemological terrain.
Best,
Dean
report post as inappropriate
Edwin Eugene Klingman replied on Feb. 20, 2011 @ 01:34 GMT
Dear Ian Durham,
Re: "Actually, the most successful theory of all time, as measured by how closely it matches experiment, is QED."
Over 60 years of QED calculations of the anomalous magnetic moment [up to 12,000 Feynman diagrams involved in the latest such calculation] have produced the eight [or so] place accuracy of QED. Then, after this calculation is made, I believe the fine structure constant [upon which it is based] is adjusted, based on the results of the latest calculation of the anomaly. In my mind, this would lead, over 6 decades to a very accurate 'correlation' between these two.
One issue that has bothered me is that, as of 1998, the vacuum energy, which is central to QED, was found to be overestimated by QED by 120 orders of magnitude. It would seem that this would call for 50 years of QED calculations to be redone, but I don't believe that this has happened. Am I missing some basic point here?
Also, just a few years ago, the proton was assumed to contain a significant contribution from the virtual 'sea of strange quarks', but this has not turned out to be the case. I don't know whether to lay the blame for this at QED's door or QCD's door, but it would seem to be related to vacuum energy.
What bother's me is that 'virtual particles' seem to be the best imaginable 'fudge factor' because the particles aren't measured [to my knowledge] but simply provide the means to 'fit' calculations to reality.
And finally, the recent recent QED calculations of the proton radius based on the experimental data from 'muonic hydrogen' is off by 4 percent. Since this is the simplest possible system one would expect better of QED. Does this mean that QED now has one place accuracy? [Which would put it in the same realm as QCD.]
I have generally been unable to get answers to these [and related] questions, and I wonder if you could help me understand what's going on.
Edwin Eugene Klingman
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 20, 2011 @ 02:29 GMT
Dean,
Thanks for the defense! Very well said (and considerably better than I could have done or was trying to do).
Edwin,
Oo, those are some excellent points you raise and I will confess to not having a proper answer at the moment. But I would agree that there are issues to be dealt with. My own inclination is that the problem lies in QCD or, rather, in the need for something beyond the Standard Model. But I'd have to think about it some more.
report post as inappropriate
Albert replied on Feb. 20, 2011 @ 10:55 GMT
@Ian,
"Regardless, the point of my essay is that the epistemic states through which we access the ontology of spacetime (reality, whatever) necessarily limit the amount of knowledge we can obtain about the ontology of reality."
Our epistemic states change constantly as technology progresses. Even until recently, we didn’t know anything about fundamental particles, DNA, even the composition of close by planets. Thus, I view your argument as a distracting issue, a red herring.
You have avoided dealing with the main issue, which is failure to unify discrete QM with analog GR.
I get the feeling there is confusion in your argument between what we think we can know about reality and what it may turn out we can know about reality.
In other words, you have not proved that what we can know is all we will ever know.
@Dean
“Neither Ian (nor me) is saying that the theory is not continuous, but only that our knowledge of the world is discontinuous (and must always be so).”
In my opinion “discontinuous knowledge” does not imply that we cannot have knowledge about a continuous world. You have not proved that. Furthermore, I find universally quantified statements like “and must always be so” sort of dogmatic. Do you know what the future holds?
I also disagree on a most fundamental level. There are many instruments physicists use that are purely analog in nature. Analog computers have been used for years to simulated dynamical systems. The knowledge those instruments provide is analog in this sense. Specific measurements may refer to discrete instants in time but those devices offer analog knowledge. Knowledge is not only the set of all discrete measurements we can get but also the means by which those measurements are obtained. Unless you can prove to me that the way we obtain knowledge is not knowledge in itself.
Thus, I am afraid your argument is not even sound.
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 20, 2011 @ 22:04 GMT
> You have avoided dealing with the main issue, which is failure to unify discrete QM with analog
> GR.
Since when was this the main issue? The contest rules said nothing of the sort (as I have pointed out before).
Like Juan, I believe you are completely missing my point. Having read several other essays including Dean's, it is also apparent that I am not the only one making this same basic point.
report post as inappropriate
Member Dean Rickles replied on Feb. 23, 2011 @ 13:06 GMT
Dear Albert,
You write:
"In my opinion "discontinuous knowledge" does not imply that we cannot have knowledge about a continuous world. You have not proved that. Furthermore, I find universally quantified statements like "and must always be so" sort of dogmatic. Do you know what the future holds?"
My point was that given our means of engaging with the world is based on discrete events (which in our most mature theories it is), any knowledge we think we gain that goes beyond these discrete events will be inference (metaphysics, in fact). Unless we radically alter our means of engaging with the world (by measurement, using relations between properties) then this will indeed always be so: this strikes me as a generalization that can be made! (I'm not completely happy with the phrase "discontinuous knowledge" in any case, and was led to it by the nature of the discussion).
This relates to your second point. You write:
"There are many instruments physicists use that are purely analog in nature. Analog computers have been used for years to simulated dynamical systems. The knowledge those instruments provide is analog in this sense. Specific measurements may refer to discrete instants in time but those devices offer analog knowledge."
I showed in my own essay how the representation (be it digital or analogue) cannot be used as a guide to the nature of the target system being represented, since one can model one and the same target system using either method of representation. Further, I'm not sure what your argument is that gets you from an analogue instrument to analogue knowledge. Given that the analogue/digital distinction refers to representation, I'm not entirely sure what "analogue knowledge" could mean? Knowledge of an analogue world? If so, then my previous points apply.
Best,
Dean
report post as inappropriate
hide replies
Thomas J. McFarlane wrote on Feb. 20, 2011 @ 06:27 GMT
Ian,
Excellent essay. Parts of it resonate considerably with the views in
my essay. One of the most interesting points is where you write,
"But what if the only way to get information about ontic states is through epistemic states? Further, what if the epistemic states themselves are discrete? How could we even determine if the underlying ontic states were continuous or not if the 'lens' through which we view them is discrete?"
I would go even further to ask how we could even determine if the underlying ontic states exist at all. In what sense is it meaningful to talk of such ontic 'things in themselves' if we never have any direct access to them, even in principle? We are of course free to create speculative models to give coherence to our empirical observations (and it is the job of science to do so), but what is gained by the additional step of attributing a non-empirical ontic reality to a hypothetical 'somewhat' that such models supposedly describe?
Thanks again for the fine essay.
Regards,
Tom
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 25, 2011 @ 02:07 GMT
Tom,
Thanks for the comments. I've printed your essay and it is on my "to read" list!
Ian
report post as inappropriate
Juan R. González-Álvarez wrote on Feb. 20, 2011 @ 13:52 GMT
Dear Ian Durham,
The arguments that Edwin Eugene Klingman is giving for rebating your claim that QED is the most precisely tested theory are part of a more general argument given by me in my post of the day 16. I copy and paste:
"The experimental support of quantum electrodynamics is excellent but it must be put in a right context. In the reference 6 in my Essay, I wrote: "Four main remarks may be done about the relativistic experiments and observations: (i) Precision tests of relativistic quantum electrodynamics are not normally carried out by directly comparing observations and experimental results to its theoretical predictions; (ii) the same tests are satisfied by formulations of relativistic quantum electrodynamics that are mutually incompatible between them; (iii) the experiments and observations only consider a very limited subset of phenomena; and (iv) both relativistic quantum electrodynamics and the relativistic quantum field theory are involved, at least indirectly, in some puzzling observations and glaring discrepancies". And then analyzed each remark by separate in the following two pages."
Edwin Eugene Klingman recent remarks belong to my early points (i) and (iv). You did not reply to my remarks about QED, but I see in your recent reply to Edwin Eugene Klingman that you confess to not having a proper answer at the moment, which means that you have not answer to my points.
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 20, 2011 @ 21:42 GMT
> which means that you have not answer to my points.
Indeed. I do not claim to know everything.
report post as inappropriate
Juan R. González-Álvarez wrote on Feb. 20, 2011 @ 13:54 GMT
Dear Ian Durham,
The relation (Dx/Dt) = c = (dx/dt) has not only mathematical sense but physical meaning, because a measurement of the left hand side ratio (Dx/Dt) implies the measurement of the right hand side ratio (Dx/Dt), both ratios being equal to the speed of light. The issue of relativistic localization is studied with great detail in the reference 6 cited above in a previous post....
view entire post
Dear Ian Durham,
The relation (Dx/Dt) = c = (dx/dt) has not only mathematical sense but physical meaning, because a measurement of the left hand side ratio (Dx/Dt) implies the measurement of the right hand side ratio (Dx/Dt), both ratios being equal to the speed of light. The issue of relativistic localization is studied with great detail in the reference 6 cited above in a previous post. The physical explanation of why dx/dt can be measured can be obtained from the study done of dx and of dt. In your Essay you affirm that we cannot measure the instantaneous speed, because --as you repeat again above-- "Delta t must have a non-zero lower bound". However, when we repeat the analysis for x, we find that this lower bound for Dt does not prevent us from measuring the value of c, by the technical reasons stated in previous posts.
Regarding the relation between quantum mechanics and quantum field theory, you repeat some well-known trivial stuff, such as that time is absolute in quantum mechanics or that in relativistic quantum field theory we study functions of spacetime (x,t). However, nothing of these trivial stuff addresses the technical points stated in my previous posts, neither in the references cited in my own Essay. For instance, in my previous post, I remarked a very specific property of x where QM and QFT are clearly in contradiction, as is well-known, and even cited a standard textbook in QFT, where this contradiction is emphasized.
Dirac emphasized his disagreement because QED (QFT) was not compatible with QM. Dirac thoughts were given in my Essay and I partially quoted a relevant part in a previous post from mine. They key point here is that QFT does not reduce to QM, as Dirac stated and how has been rigorously proven in the references cited before. About other aspects of your post, the rest of references cited in my Essay give very detailed technical responses.
Effectively, as I have just emphasized "there exist limits where that discreteness is indistinguishable from a continuum", but this does not imply your claim that "classical physics is a myth". In fact, I am just saying the contrary than you! Classical physics is not myth, but a limiting case of quantum physics.
Your analysis of the car speedometer resembles the Schrödinger-cat paradox. This old paradox was based in a naive (without any mathematical rigor or experimental support) interpretation of the quantum theory, where a cat would be in some strange quantum superposition unless some physicist would look to it. But as our modern understanding of the quantum theory reflects, the cat will be classical even if no physicist is present at the lab. The same can be said about the car and the engineer. The car will be not classical or not according to engineer's boss choices about the number of decimal places in speedometer. With independence of the precision of the car's speedometer, this will be a classical car, not one in some weird quantum superposition between New York and Paris, for instance. The same argument hold for your appeal to bathroom scales; with independence of its precision, you will be not superposed between bathroom and kitchen.
You repeat your comments about QED being the most accurate physical theory ever developed, but again you omit the technical details. I already put your statement in a right context in my first post of day 16!
You add now that QED is "ultimately a discrete theory". But this is another exaggeration, because QED is a theory of quantum fields and the quantum fields are continuum objects (with continuum spectral decomposition and continuum basis). Moreover, QED also treats volume and others properties as a continuum.
You are right on the existence of different views regarding history. However, not all the views are in the same footing (for instance, the view that Einstein played no role in the development of relativity is maintained by some very few historians, but their view is strongly rejected by the rest of historians). Regarding the history of the atomic theory, it is broadly accepted by historians of science (and I do not know anyone who disagree!) that chemists of the 18th and 19th were the first to develop a scientific theory where the Universe was considered to be composed of tiny particles called atoms. I have given arguments, the names of relevant scientists as Dalton, and how using this discrete model, they were able to explain empirical laws then without any explanation.
Moreover, as is well-known to historians of science, electricity was considered to be made of discrete negative particles before the 20th century:
"Now the most startling result of Faraday's Law is perhaps this. If we accept the hypothesis that the elementary substances are composed of atoms, we cannot avoid concluding that electricity also, positive as well as negative, is divided into definite elementary portions which behave like atoms of electricity."
Those discrete units of electricity were named "electrons" by physicist Stoney in the 19th, who added about his paper "On the Physical Units of Nature" the following: "I called attention to this minimum quantity of electricity as one of three physical units, the absolute amounts of which are furnished to us by Nature, and which may be made the basis of a complete body of systematic units in which there shall be nothing arbitrary".
As a conclusion, the affirmation done in your Essay on that everyone before the 20th century believed in a continuum Universe is one without historical basis.
view post as summary
report post as inappropriate
Juan R. González-Álvarez replied on Feb. 20, 2011 @ 14:03 GMT
A mistake in my post, the part where it says:
"The relation (Dx/Dt) = c = (dx/dt) has not only mathematical sense but physical meaning, because a measurement of the left hand side ratio (Dx/Dt) implies the measurement of the right hand side ratio (Dx/Dt), both ratios being equal to the speed of light."
must be corrected to:
The relation (Dx/Dt) = c = (dx/dt) has not only mathematical sense but physical meaning, because a measurement of the left hand side ratio (Dx/Dt) implies the measurement of the right hand side ratio (dx/dt), both ratios being equal to the speed of light.
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 20, 2011 @ 21:58 GMT
I think you are still fundamentally missing my point, as Dean also made clear.
I know full well that physicists believed in discrete electrons as early as the 19th century. Indeed, Newton proposed a particle theory of light even earlier! The question is, did they concurrently believe that *reality itself* was discrete? How about time? Or space for that matter? Believing that something *in* reality is discrete does not mean that one must believe reality *itself* is discrete.
Regarding QFT versus QM, you are mistakenly equating "different" with "contradictory." QM and GR are contradictory in certain respects. QM and QFT are not. You are taking Dirac's comments entirely out of context.
Regarding the speed of light as a constant, in fact it is merely a maximum value that can be obtained. It is known to be lower than its vacuum value in objects (e.g. water, crystals, etc.). Further, there have been suggestions (and some claim to evidentiary support) that it is variable under certain constraints (see work by Magueijo and others - I think I spelled his name wrong, but I don't have his papers handy).
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 20, 2011 @ 22:06 GMT
Oh, and regarding my lack of "technical details" surrounding the claims of the accuracy of QED, Google "precision tests of QED" and read what comes up.
report post as inappropriate
Robert Spoljaric wrote on Feb. 21, 2011 @ 09:25 GMT
Dear Dr. Durham,
Thank you for a truly enjoyable essay. And my sincerest condolences for your father-in-law.
I do have a question. In my essay is a generalisation of the energy of a photon (‘the Light’), which is that ‘indefinable fusion’ of the continuous and discrete, mentioned by de Broglie. Further, ‘the Light’ is the only ‘quantum’ theory that necessarily follows on from classical physics, and unequivocally demonstrates “Classical physics, with its inherent continuity, is nothing more than a convenient myth.”
Therefore, is ‘the Light’ ontic, epistemic, or both?
All the best,
Robert
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 25, 2011 @ 02:04 GMT
Thanks Robert! Excellent question about light. In fact it directly relates to particle physics. In the Standard Model, the fundamental interactions are all mediated by "virtual" bosons. So electromagnetic interactions are all mediated by "virtual" photons, yet, as we all know, at least some of these virtual photons become "real." As David Griffiths says in his excellent book on particle physics, "[y]ou might say that a real particle is a virtual particle that lasts long enough that we don't care to inquire how it was produced, or how it is eventually absorbed." In my mind, I would tend to think that states of "virtual" particles are epistemic while states of "real" particles are ontic, yet there in the example I just cited it is a matter of how long the state lasts! So the "light" mediating an interaction between two closely spaced magnets would, by that reasoning, be epistemic while the light mediating the interaction between you and a distant star that you observe in the night sky is ontic. I would say that qualifies as an interesting philosophical problem.
report post as inappropriate
Robert Spoljaric replied on Feb. 25, 2011 @ 03:01 GMT
Dear Dr. Durham,
Thankyou for the reply. In my essay is a defintion of 'the Light,' which is a generalisation of the energy of a photon. Historically and conceptually this definition precede's the advent of QM.
Based upon what you said above, 'the Light' is both epistemic and ontic. Therefore the reason knowledge of 'the Light' is discontinous (at the subatomic level)is because 'the Light' itself is discontinous. Perhaps you could read my essay and let me know if you think that is correct.
Robert
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 26, 2011 @ 15:40 GMT
Robert,
I'll print out your essay and read it. I'm interested in what you have to say on the topic.
Ian
report post as inappropriate
T H Ray wrote on Feb. 21, 2011 @ 11:45 GMT
Ian,
The thing I most appreciate about your essay -- and it's a great one -- is the recognition of the difference between mathematical continuity and the continuity of physical experience as enshrined in classical physics. Yes, it brings into question the very meaning of objective knowledge and its relation to ontology.
I expect you'll continue to be the very model of a modern mathematician. Gilbert and Sullivan get no apologies from me. :-) I mean, putting aside what we're "not supposed" to look at closely in the way we see the world (Monet is a better example than Van Gogh, in my opinion), mathematics always deals with what lies beneath, as basic structure -- point and line and number. Yet the evolution of graphic art from flat images to perspectives incorporating a point at infinity anticipates the progress of mathematics incorporating that same image, in the abstract, on C*. If we need reasons to think that the ontology of mathematics connects with that of physics, we can always find them.
I'm sorry for the loss of your father in law. Even though the event is inevitable, it seems that nothing prepares any of us for it.
Good luck to you.
Tom
report post as inappropriate
T H Ray replied on Feb. 21, 2011 @ 14:42 GMT
Ian,
Having read again more carefully, please indulge me in correcting a slight inaccuracy that I think has been responsible for many misunderstandings of general relativity. On p. 7, you characterize spacetime in general relativity as being modeled on a four dimensional Lorentzian manifold. Not quite true. It is a four dimensional pseudo-Riemannian manifold of Lorentzian metric properties.
This is important, especially for the relativity-doubters (with which this forum abounds) because it explains classical gravity symmetry and time reversal symmetry. The manifold is pseudo-Riemannian because every Riemannian manifold is, in fact, orientable. The non-orientability of Lorentz invariance ("all physics is local") informs us of the relationship of "empty space" to matter -- it was Einstein's (and Mach's) desire to reduce physical epistemology to the properties of matter alone. Lorentz invariance with spacetime produced a model finite in time and unbounded in space.
Tom
report post as inappropriate
T H Ray replied on Feb. 21, 2011 @ 15:59 GMT
My apologies. I did not know that "Lorentzian manifold" is a special case of the pseudo-Riemannian manifold until I looked it up. (I was unfamiliar with the term.) Other points re relativity still hold, nevertheless.
Tom
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 25, 2011 @ 02:09 GMT
Tom,
Thanks for the comments! No need to apologize about "Lorentzian manifolds." My essay for last year's contest tried to make the point that one of our problems is language. I sometimes think we have too much jargon, some of which can give different impressions.
Ian
report post as inappropriate
T H Ray replied on Feb. 25, 2011 @ 17:41 GMT
Ian,
Indeed. My knee-jerk reaction is a case in point. This part of relativity is abused so widely and often that it's blinded me to checking terms more carefully for definition.
Tom
report post as inappropriate
hide replies
Christian Corda wrote on Feb. 21, 2011 @ 17:24 GMT
Hi Ian,
once again, you wrote an excellent Essay. In particular, I enjoyed with the "EVERY GOOD MYTH NEEDS AN ANCIENT GREEK".
Have my condolences for the death of Lawrence Brod.
Best regards,
Ch.
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 25, 2011 @ 02:11 GMT
Juan R. González-Álvarez wrote on Feb. 21, 2011 @ 21:30 GMT
############################################################
############
Dear Ian Durham,
Dean Rickles replied to Albert, and mixing Albert's viewpoints (I do not agree with all that he said) with the mine (e.g. you name me in a reply to him) only can give up to further confusion. I will repeat my point.
I have said that there exist limits where discreteness is...
view entire post
############################################################
############
Dear Ian Durham,
Dean Rickles replied to Albert, and mixing Albert's viewpoints (I do not agree with all that he said) with the mine (e.g. you name me in a reply to him) only can give up to further confusion. I will repeat my point.
I have said that there exist limits where discreteness is indistinguishable from a continuum, which implies that your claim that "classical physics is a myth" is a complete exaggeration. Classical physics is not myth, but a well-defined subset of physics. Classical physics is a scientific discipline not a myth!
I offered some technical details about my point that you have avoided. Following your example of a car speedometer, I emphasized why a car is a classical object even if you decide to "look closely enough" (in your own words). I also drew the interesting analogy between your claims and the confusion of the earlier physicists regarding the state of a cat (Schrödinger-cat paradox). The cat will be in a classical state, with independence of the observations of the physicists, if any observing the cat at all! Analogously, the car will not be in a superposition between Paris and New York even if you ask engineers for a better car's speedometer.
You say "I know full well that physicists believed in discrete electrons as early as the 19th century." This is again misleading by several reasons. Physicists and chemists developed a scientific theory of matter which contained a discrete unit of electricity, instead of merely believing in discreteness as some philosophers did; these scientists named "electrons" to those discrete units (your term "discrete electrons" is misleading because electrons are, by definition, discrete); they gave the value for this elementary unit of charge; and they emphasized its fundamental role for our understanding of the Universe. Stoney wrote in his paper "On the Physical Units of Nature":
"I called attention to this minimum quantity of electricity as one of three physical units, the absolute amounts of which are furnished to us by Nature, and which may be made the basis of a complete body of systematic units in which there shall be nothing arbitrary".
As a consequence, the claims made in your Essay have not historical basis. Personally, I find really curious that the discrete theories developed by physicists and chemists in the 18th and 19th suggest to you that they would believe that "reality itself" is continuous, whereas you affirmed above to us your belief on that QED is "ultimately a discrete theory", without being aware of that QED is a theory of fields and that the fields are continuum systems (the fields have a continuum spectra).
Regarding the relation between QFT and QM, you opine that I am "taking Dirac's comments entirely out of context". The problem here is not that you ignore what Dirac really said, but that you also ignore the additional technical details and the rigorous references given.
For instance, I remarked one specific contradiction between QFT and QM at least in three occasions, and your response has consisted on completely avoiding to comment about this contradiction the same number of times.
In previous posts I discussed how, contrary to misguided claims done in your Essay, the constant speed of light c can be measured. The fact that the phase speed v = c/n is less than c for materials as water, does not mean that we cannot measure c. You then move away from materials and introduce Magueijo cosmological model where the speed of light c is substituted by a variable speed c*. However, his work is highly speculative (I was discussing our current models based in the universal constant c and how we measure that c in the lab). Moreover, he introduces a larger c* for the early Universe, but maintains a value c for the present Universe. Finally, it must be emphasized that, even if his model was finally verified, it does not change my remark (Dx/Dt = c = dx/dt) about the constant c.
Finally, you add "Oh, and regarding my lack of 'technical details' surrounding the claims of the accuracy of QED, Google 'precision tests of QED' and read what comes up." Again you ignore what is being said. Nobody here doubts of that accuracy. I wrote "The experimental support of quantum electrodynamics is excellent". The part that you omit both in your Essay and in this forum is that accuracy may be put on the right context.
The right context is the following, as I wrote before: "Four main remarks may be done about the relativistic experiments and observations: (i) Precision tests of relativistic quantum electrodynamics are not normally carried out by directly comparing observations and experimental results to its theoretical predictions; (ii) the same tests are satisfied by formulations of relativistic quantum electrodynamics that are mutually incompatible between them; (iii) the experiments and observations only consider a very limited subset of phenomena; and (iv) both relativistic quantum electrodynamics and the relativistic quantum field theory are involved, at least indirectly, in some puzzling observations and glaring discrepancies". And then analyzed each remark by separate in the following two pages."
Edwin Eugene Klingman has done similar remarks about QED regarding points (i) and (iv), you replied to him confessing to not having a proper answer, you replied me saying more of the same... but now without offering any technical response to any of us, you go up and ask us to read Google hits for "precision tests of QED"! I am sorry to reveal you that this material was already known to us and that, evidently, it does not address the points (i)-(iv).
view post as summary
report post as inappropriate
Neil Bates wrote on Feb. 24, 2011 @ 02:28 GMT
Ian,
Well considered and summary look at the difference between how pure math operates versus limitations of actual measurements, at the "bird's eye view." Indeed, models and measurements are not so dovetailed as the glib idea suggests. This is particularly vexing in the quantum realm. I invite you and others to look at my essay, at http://www.fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/949. There I consider the claim that decoherence in any way resolves the measurement problem, with proposed experiments to confirm my claim that the answer is "no, it doesn't." To me, the MP transcends the issue of discreteness, because (ironically named) realist concepts per se can't fully describe our universe or deal with genuine unpredictability.
report post as inappropriate
buy proviron wrote on Feb. 24, 2011 @ 20:54 GMT
Det finns uppenbarligen mycket att veta om detta. Jag tror att du gjorde några bra saker i funktioner också. Fortsätt arbeta, bra jobb!
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 25, 2011 @ 02:14 GMT
Thank you (I think?)! (I'm guessing that bra jobb means good job in, maybe, Swedish??)
report post as inappropriate
Ben Baten wrote on Feb. 25, 2011 @ 02:10 GMT
Dear Ian,
I onjoyed reading your essay. Several of the issue that you discuss have been paradoxical for ages and have not been resolved satisfactory. There is, however, a way to get around those issues, which I will explain below by addressing them specifically.
1. Page 4. the second expression for the average speed makes the assumption that the limit can be determined, because dt...
view entire post
Dear Ian,
I onjoyed reading your essay. Several of the issue that you discuss have been paradoxical for ages and have not been resolved satisfactory. There is, however, a way to get around those issues, which I will explain below by addressing them specifically.
1. Page 4. the second expression for the average speed makes the assumption that the limit can be determined, because dt (read d as Greek delta) can be made arbitrary small. This is not the case. As I describe in my essay, for electrons, dt has a lower bound equal to 10 exp (-20) sec. A The electron would cease its existence by 'making it smaller'. In other words, mathematically, one can determine the stated limit, but it is unphysical. The velocity of a massive particle is well-defined, even although dt is different from zero. The velocity of a particle does not need to be described in terms of a mathematical limit at all: a definition in terms of a discrete ratio is sufficient, i.e. v = dx/dt, where dx and dt are constrained by quantum condition (4) stated in my essay. In this way, an electron can be assigned a velocity without measuring this (see page 6 of your essay where you discuss the issues around this).
2. Page 5. Classical Light. I assume you mean light described in terms of classical theory.
3. Page 5. "by Brukner and Zeilinger to argue that the continuum is nothing but a mathematical construct, a view I wholeheartedly endorse". I do not necessarily agree with this view. As I describe in my essay, continuity needs to co-exist with discreteness. In the theory I describe, two underlying continuous fundamental fields are needed to explain the existence of particles, interaction between particles, and dynamically emergence of local discrete space and time.
4. Page 5. "So what happens in the limit as dt --> 0 for classical light?" As I indicated under 1., dt cannot be smaller than 10 exp (-20) sec. Light cannot be attributed a discrete time, unless one wants to define it as wavelength/c. The latter is not very useful, since the time would be wavelength dependent.
5. Page 5. "Suppose we decrease dt while leaving dx unchanged. As dt gets smaller and smaller, it implies we are measuring the difference between x1 and x2 more and more rapidly. Lest we forget, classical physics limits how rapidly information can propagate. At some point, without changing dx, we will be empirically prevented from further reducing dt since the ratio of dx to dt cannot exceed the speed of light. So, if we wish to take dt --> 0, we must take dx--> 0 in order to keep the ratio at or below the speed of light."
There is an implicit assumption made that dt can be made arbitrary small, which is not the case as I explained earlier. For a stationary electron dx=0, while dt=10 exp (-20) sec, such that the ratio dx/dt=0 and there is no issue with violating the speed-of-light as one would get by assuming that dt can be made arbitrary small. When the speed of an electron increases, both dx and dt increase, but their ratio cannot exceed the speed-of-light c. In my essay, I explain that this is due to the fact that the internal speed of random spatial motion of an electron is equal to the speed-of-light. The details can be found in the second report on my website.
6. Page 5. "The classical theory of light assumes light is a wave which is an inherently non-local phenomenon". Indeed. This result in a paradoxical behavior. However, is is also known that light consists of photons, which propagate at the speed-of-light, and posses a kind of corpuscular behavior when detected. When one assumes that photons are oscillating blobs, then they do not behave as a classical wave. Still, a 'wavelength' can be assigned, which is equal to the length of the oscillation.
I have a few more comments, which I may write up later.
view post as summary
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 25, 2011 @ 02:24 GMT
Thanks for the comments, Ben. Regarding your point number 6, the corpuscular theory of light is inherently quantum. No classical corpuscular theory of light was ever successful as far as I am aware.
I think we fundamentally agree. In all your points where you say there's a lower limit to dt (and then you cite it), that's precisely my point. There is a lower *empirical* limit. The assumption that dt -> 0 is a purely mathematical one and is not grounded in reality, as you correctly point out.
I would, however, disagree on two points. First, if we assume an empirical limit on dt, then we need to also assume an empirical limit on dx such that v can never be zero since zero motion for point particles is ultimately prevented by quantum effects as is well-known. Second, on your point number 3, there are ways to take the ontological status of a field out of the theory without altering the mathematics, i.e. the "field" interpretation of the mathematics is only one possible interpretation of them.
report post as inappropriate
Juan R. González-Álvarez replied on Feb. 25, 2011 @ 12:23 GMT
Dear Ben Baten,
For an electron at rest Dx (D is Delta) is not zero, as you say, but
Dx ~ (hbar/mc),
with m being the electron mass. This is the equation (13) in the Reference 6 cited in my
Essay.
Reference 6 rigorously revises these and other topics (for instance, the equation (14) gives the value of Dx for an ultra-relativistic electron with momentum p), explains why those limits Dx and Dt are not fundamental but arise only under certain approximations in the propagators (as the approximate propagators used in relativistic QFT), and corrects other claims that you and Ian are doing here.
report post as inappropriate
Juan R. González-Álvarez replied on Feb. 25, 2011 @ 12:46 GMT
Dear Ian Durham,
as explained in my previous posts above, the existence of a lower limit to Dt (D is Delta) does not imply that the instantaneous velocity for light is not defined as, however, you believe.
As I showed, when one considers also the lower limit to Dx one obtains the exact equation for photons
Dx/Dt = c = dx/dt
which implies that expressions as (dx/dt) are perfectly well-defined and measurable.
You correctly point out Baten's mistake about Dx for electrons. However, again the lower limits for both Dx and Dt for relativistic electrons (or other particles) does not imply that the instantaneous velocity for those particles is not defined.
A rigorous analysis of relativistic localization for electrons was given in the reference 6 cited in my
. One can easily obtain the next exact equation for fermions
Dx/Dt = (c alpha) = dx/dt
where alpha is one of the Dirac matrices.
Precisely the instantaneous velocity (c alpha) is used in QED to obtain the current density
j = e Psi* (c alpha) Psi
where e is the particle charge and Psi the field
Or in a more standard form
j = e c \bar{Psi} gamma Psi
with \bar{Psi} the adjoint field and gamma another of Dirac matrix.
There are other claims that you do that are corrected in the same reference 6.
report post as inappropriate
Ben Baten replied on Feb. 25, 2011 @ 22:56 GMT
Dear Ian,
1. You're right that no classical theory of light was ever succesful. That is not the point I wanted to make. Photons are quantum like entities can be detected by particle detectors. In interference experiments they exhibit a wave-like character. This dual behavior could be reconciled by assuming that they are oscillating 'blobs in motion' to which a frequency (temporal periodicity) and 'wavelength' (spatial periodicity) can be assigned and which is detectable as a particle.
2. Your reply: "I would, however, disagree on two points. First, if we assume an empirical limit on dt, then we need to also assume an empirical limit on dx such that v can never be zero since zero motion for point particles is ultimately prevented by quantum effects as is well-known.
This is not correct. We are talking about two different things, namely the internal random motion (Zitterbewegung) and the external observable average motion of a particle dx (which you use in your essay). In case of a stationary particle, obviously, the externally observable motion dx=0. However, the internal random motion is created in 'discrete portions' equal to dx sup 0 = h/mc (Compton's 'wavelength). In my essay I talk about dx sup 0, from which dx sup 0= h/mc can be derived via h v sub 0 = m sub 0 c sup 2 (de Broglie's equation, see (1) in my essay).
3. Your reply: " Second, on your point number 3, there are ways to take the ontological status of a field out of the theory without altering the mathematics, i.e. the "field" interpretation of the mathematics is only one possible interpretation of them."
I would like to remark that, by assuming the existence of two fundamental interacting fields (protofields in my essay or whatever you want to call them) one can show that the existence of massive particles, their interaction, the notion of particle spin, particle charge, mass, wave function all can be explained consistently within one coherent model (see the complex non-perturbative considerations in ref 2/3 of my references). The true nature of those 'fields' will likely never be known: we can only observe their consequences in particle interaction behavior and detectors. The issue with current (multi-body) interaction models is that, unfortunately, either they are too simple or they cut out essential pieces if the math 'gets too difficult'. When applied to the conjectured interacting two protofields it is shown that those cut-out pieces are essential to understand the complete quantum and relativistic behavior of particles. The internally random quantum behavior of massive particles can be identified with Zitterbewegung.
report post as inappropriate
Ben Baten replied on Feb. 25, 2011 @ 22:59 GMT
Dear Juan,
See my last reply to Ian in which I have included an answer to the issue you bring up.
report post as inappropriate
Juan R. González-Álvarez replied on Feb. 26, 2011 @ 13:57 GMT
Dear Ben,
You are right on that we are talking about different things.
By "x" both Ian and me are referring to the position as used, for instance, in QED. This is the instantaneous position of "point particles" as described in a quantum field theoretic framework. There is not such a thing as "internal motion" for point particles. Moreover, the nonzero Dx (D is delta) is not associated to real motion of any kind (althouth I know that some few references claim otherwise for the Zitterbewegung).
If you want compute velocities/speeds you must use compatible positions and times. If "x" denotes position in QED, then "t" denotes time in QED and ratios as Dx/Dt and dx/dt are mathematically well-defined and with physical meaning. If by "x" you mean otherwise (as it seems that you mean with your "externally observable motion"), then you must also change "t" from that on QED to that in your own model.
Finally, I want to emphasize again that the Dx ~ (hbar/mc) written in my above message is valid only for a stationary electron in QED and that it is neither the De Broglie wavelength lambda nor the Einstein-de Broglie 'wavelength' postulated in 1924 by de Broglie in his unfounded mixing of non-relativistic wave quantum mechanics with special relativity.
report post as inappropriate
Juan R. González-Álvarez replied on Feb. 26, 2011 @ 14:17 GMT
To avoid further misunderstandings, I would add that the instantaneous velocity (c alpha), used in QED to obtain the fermion current densities, is not observable, although the speed and one of the components are observable.
The reason which the vector (c alpha) is not observable has nothing to see with the existence of a lower limit for Dt, but is a direct consequence that the x in QFT is not Hermitian. This is the true reason which there is not position operator in QFT and position is downgraded to unobservable parameter, as emphasized in many texts.
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 26, 2011 @ 15:52 GMT
Interesting points (both Ben and Juan). I still think, Juan, that we are fundamentally talking about different positions. I am not saying instantaneous velocities are not well-defined, nor am I saying that they do not exist. I am merely saying that, given existing technology, they cannot be measured to arbitrary accuracy.
Ben, as for your point number 2, while conceptually I see where you're coming from, I would argue that no such measurement has ever been made in a laboratory. In other words, we've never achieved absolute zero in a laboratory. As for your point number 3, I think I agree with it.
report post as inappropriate
Juan R. González-Álvarez replied on Feb. 26, 2011 @ 20:07 GMT
Dear Ian,
I have been analyzing another kind of statements done by you both in your Essay and in this forum. Relations as (Dx/Dt = c = dx/dt) given by me in this forum are independent of the "given existing technology".
Another issue is our current ability to measure arbitrary physical, chemical, or biological quantities using the technology at our hand. This would be the debate of the difference between (dx/dt)_th and (dx/dt)_exp, for instance.
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 26, 2011 @ 23:44 GMT
Juan,
So you are, in essence, you are saying that there are really three ways in which we can understand dx/dt and not two: first, there is the purely mathematical sense of an instantaneous value such as dx/dt which has no real meaning outside of pure mathematics (i.e. it's purely symbolic); then there is dx/dt with the added meaning attached to it when it becomes associated with a theory; and finally there is the experimental realization of dx/dt.
I make no distinction between (dx/dt)_math and (dx/dt)_th in my essay which I think has been the source of confusion here. In fact the entire point of my essay is to argue that limitations on (dx/dt)_exp mean that we can never know whether (dx/dt)_th is real or just a mathematical approximation.
Ian
report post as inappropriate
Juan R. González-Álvarez replied on Feb. 28, 2011 @ 19:20 GMT
Dear Ian,
Effectively, there is three different (dx/dt): the mathematical (dx/dt)_math where x and t are just mathematical objects; the theoretical (dx/dt)_th where x is the physical quantity "position" and t the physical quantity "time" (each with its respective unit); and (dx/dt)_exp related to an experimental realization given according to a concrete operational recipe and system.
However, for the case (dx/dt = c) discussed here, there is not difference between the theoretical and the experimental because the experimental value of c is exact in the SI and as said in a previous post: "Relations as (Dx/Dt = c = dx/dt) given by me in this forum are independent of the «given existing technology»".
report post as inappropriate
hide replies
Anonymous wrote on Feb. 26, 2011 @ 08:18 GMT
Dear Dr. Ian Durham,
Iam a little bit confused of your thoughts on digital and analog nature of reality.Which one is more basic than the other one,analog or digital? Or do you want to say that it lies in our way of perception of reality. Any way historic background upon which you have based your essay is really absorbing.
But,I have other thoughts on the above problem in my essay.Why dont you,please,go through it and have a different view of the problem? Expecting your openion on it.
Best regards and wishing success in the competition.
Sreenath B N.
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 26, 2011 @ 23:45 GMT
I will add your essay to the list of them that I am reading.
Indeed, the divide between analog and digital lies in how we perceive reality.
report post as inappropriate
Lawrence B Crowell wrote on Feb. 27, 2011 @ 00:26 GMT
The relationship between the continuous and discrete aspects of the world seems to be an example of a complementary principle. I am not sure how this can be formally demonstrated. Yet it appears that wave functions and continuous structures of that nature are not directly observed, whereas what we do observe are particle or the discrete event of a particle occurrence.
Your essay was pretty good and enjoyable.
Cheers LC
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 27, 2011 @ 17:52 GMT
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it! I think the continuous v. discrete debate was actually at the true heart of the original complementarity principle. If you read Bohr's writings and those of people who adhered to his principles, I think you'll find that this is precisely at the core of what they were talking about.
report post as inappropriate
Juan R. González-Álvarez replied on Feb. 28, 2011 @ 19:23 GMT
Dear Lawrence B Crowell,
What "complementary principle"?
report post as inappropriate
nikman replied on Mar. 1, 2011 @ 18:54 GMT
Juan R. González-Álvarez replied on Mar. 1, 2011 @ 21:06 GMT
Ok, what "complementarity principle"?
report post as inappropriate
T H Ray replied on Mar. 2, 2011 @ 12:53 GMT
Juan R. González-Álvarez replied on Mar. 2, 2011 @ 19:30 GMT
Dear T H Ray,
The own page that you link says at the very start "This article needs attention from an expert on the subject".
The literature about Bohr's complementarity principle that I know is rather ambiguous and often completely incorrect.
It must be emphasized that the standard formulation of QM is based in a set of postulates, none of which is a "complementarity principle".
report post as inappropriate
T H Ray replied on Mar. 2, 2011 @ 22:54 GMT
It's hardly worth a debate. Complementarity is now part of the history of quantum theory and was never (unlike uncertainty and nonlocality) an essential feature.
Tom
report post as inappropriate
Juan R. González-Álvarez replied on Mar. 3, 2011 @ 10:52 GMT
Dear T H Ray,
Effectively, there is not such *principle* in quantum mechanics, but found only in early debates (e.g. Bohr vs Einstein) during the development of quantum mechanics, when many stuff was novel and not still understood.
However, Lawrence B Crowell wrote on Feb. 27, 2011 @ 00:26 GMT,
"The relationship between the continuous and discrete aspects of the world seems to be an example of a complementary principle."
He does not seem to be considering the historical roots of quantum mechanics, but some essential feature of the world, which I see nowhere. Therein my (still unanswered) question to him: what principle?
report post as inappropriate
hide replies
Peter Jackson wrote on Feb. 27, 2011 @ 00:54 GMT
Dear Ian
I'll need to read your essay again more carefully and will do so, but your response above to Robert Spoljaric interested me as much and seemed to be fully consistent with the basis of my own essay rather than the ruling paradigm.
There also seems to be a similar strong consistent and broad 'new physics' theme emerging in a number of others, including our current leader Jarmo, also Edwin, Robert, Willard, Georgina, Rafael and the list goes on.
Do you think FQXi may at last be engendering the fundamental paradigm shift it was conceived for? or do you feel the new green shoots will be trampled on yet again? or are not worth nurturing? I'd be interested in your views on mine and the above if you have time to add them to your list!
Best of luck.
Peter
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Feb. 27, 2011 @ 17:56 GMT
Peter,
Unfortunately, I'm a bit of a cynic so I don't necessarily think FQXi is engendering any paradigm shift (though I think it does a great deal of good). There are just too many people out there who see FQXi as an organization of cranks (ignoring the fact that there are five Nobelists among us).
That said, there may be a slow shift happening in foundational circles. But I don't think anything will truly change until there is a major breakthrough in experiment. Just my opinion (though one shared by a few other people).
Ian
report post as inappropriate
T H Ray replied on Feb. 28, 2011 @ 11:51 GMT
I find it hard to understand why one would identify radical reversals of known science with a great creative surge of knowledge, when the facts say otherwise. Arguably, the most revolutionary ideas in physics in the last 300 years -- Einstein's -- were founded in the revolution that Newton started, not in any new way of doing physics. Even now, where relavitity meets quantum mechanics, most bets are on quantum field theory to extend Einstein's work, not overturn it.
Regardless of the charatcerizations of popularizers, objective knowledge viewed in an objective manner is hard won and incremental -- like the process of evolution itself.
Tom
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 1, 2011 @ 14:56 GMT
Tom,
Yeah, I agree with you. In fact that's a bone of contention I have with field theories. That's also why I'm not a huge fan of Kuhn's "paradigm shift" interpretation of the history of science.
Ian
report post as inappropriate
T H Ray replied on Mar. 1, 2011 @ 17:52 GMT
Ian,
Just so! Despite Kuhn's wider popularity, I was always more drawn to Popper's rejection of all forms of historicism (Kuhn, Hegel/Marx, etc.) in favor of the progressive model of critical rationalism (although I admit my personal philosophy is more rational idealist).
Anyway, when you spoke of "hopping sideways" among points, it struck a chord, because a week or so ago I happened to be thumbing through an old copy on my bookshelf of Roscza Petr's book on infinity. One of the illustrations had to do with mapping a discrete point to every locus of another independent set of points -- possible only if the point is of sufficient distance from the other set. Because we assume that there are no such isolated points in our universe, your "hopping" model would be the only physical way to connect all the dots (so to speak). For this reason, I think if quantum field theory is to succeed, it will have to be topological (Witten) where distance has a different meaning. More insight in my essay, if you get a chance.
Tom
report post as inappropriate
hide replies
Peter Jackson wrote on Feb. 27, 2011 @ 19:05 GMT
Ian
Thanks. Cynicism seems difficult to fight in current conditions, and experimental results now seem consistently defined by the ruling paradigm not the other way round. Who would now volunteer for the 'crank label by being inconsistent?!
If you really are am empiricist I really do hope you might look over my essay and advise what may be physically wrong with the empirically consistent solution to unification at it's heart.
You'll need to slow down and think carefully at a few key points. It appears it's only lack of that care that has prevented the solution being seen before now.
There was something very moot late in your essay I'd like to return to, in the meantime I'd be richly honoured by any views on mine. (2020 Vision, a model of discretion..)
Best wishes
Peter
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 1, 2011 @ 14:58 GMT
Peter,
I will promise to look over your essay. I have a stack I have to read so it may be awhile before I get to it, but I promise to do so before too long.
Ian
report post as inappropriate
Georgina Parry wrote on Feb. 28, 2011 @ 08:49 GMT
Dear Ian,
I have just had a quick read of your essay. I was very pleasantly surprised as I had thought it might be far to complicated for me to understand. I will certainly read it again when I have more time and am less tired.It is written in an accessible and clear way.
The introduction is excellent. You are the first, that I have read , who plainly asks what is actually meant by continuous and discreet, as well as asking what is meant by reality. You are right to highlight the limits to objective knowledge. We can not know because our knowledge is limited by the need to make detections and interpret them. There is some overlap with last years question here.
Any way It looks like you have done a very good job of addressing the essay question in an enjoyable and relevant way.
I was sorry to hear of the loss of your father in Law.
Good luck. Georgina
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 1, 2011 @ 15:08 GMT
Georgina,
Thank you so much for the kind words! I am glad I made it accessible. It gives me faith that I'm in the right line of business (teaching at a small college, I mean).
There is definitely some overlap with last year's question. In fact it has made me consider putting together a longer treatise on the subject that includes both last year's and this year's essays, perhaps as the core of a class I might offer.
Ian
report post as inappropriate
Tommaso Bolognesi wrote on Feb. 28, 2011 @ 16:30 GMT
Dear Ian,
your essay has the merit, I think, to discuss with more clarity than other participants the distinction between the ontological and epistemological spheres.
There is a (minor) point on which I tend to disagree, or at least I need clarification. You write:
"This idea simply formalizes the somewhat intuitive notion that causality is somehow related to continuity. To get a better conceptual understanding of this, suppose two events, A and B, are causally connected. Then there must be some way to get information from one to the other without exceeding the speed of light (or, more formally, they must be either timelike or lightlike separated). If spacetime is discontinuous, how do we know that this information couldn't 'jump around' from point to point? Continuity guarantees that the information follows a nice, orderly 'path' between A and B. This should make it easy to see the conceptual attraction of a continuous reality."
I really do not see the coupling between causality and continuity as something that matches common intuition. In particular I am not sure I understand what you mean by writing that one might be worried by the possible uncontrolled jumps of information (possibly messing up causality, you probably imply) under a discontinuous spacetime assumption.
I am indeed tempted to say that a discrete spacetime assumption, as embodied in a partial order/directed-graph model (a causal set) would create less problems to intuition, as far as causality flow is concerned, due to the explicitly represented paths that information may follow in the discrete structure: you explicitly indicate which event influences which other event. (And Lorentz distance, in the continuum, in nicely approximated by graph-theoretic longest-path distance, in the discrete setting.)
Tommaso
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 1, 2011 @ 15:24 GMT
Thanks Tommaso!
I understand where you are coming from in regard to the directed graph approach (in fact, I would go one step further and use category theory). But what I was saying was that, at least to some people (this is obviously not all), a causal spacetime would necessarily seem like it had to be continuous. In fact, Hawking and Sachs wrote
an interesting article on this back in the '70s and suggested that, at least in macrophysics, causal continuity should be a fundamental postulate.
My argument, which was brief due to length restrictions, essentially is as follows. Imagine a simple 2-D spacetime with coordinates x and t. If spacetime is continuous, then we can think of it as an infinite "world-sheet," so-to-speak, and we can overlay our x and t axes anywhere on it. Now, in a discontinuous spacetime, we can think of it rather as a collection of disconnected points. It makes no sense to globally overlay x and t axes here because x and t are not defined in between the points. So the x and t can only be defined locally *on* the points. But then, it might be perfectly possible for information to hop from point to point even if it is "sideways." It would seem to violate a macro-causality, though wouldn't really on a micro scale since spacetime would only be locally defined. At some point I should work up some diagrams to help better explain what I am trying to say here.
report post as inappropriate
Tommaso Bolognesi replied on Mar. 2, 2011 @ 18:31 GMT
Dear Ian,
thanks for spelling my name correctly, and not with swapped doubles, as many people in your continent do.
I am afraid I still don't see your point. Perhaps the source of confusion is in the idea of trying to bring around the x-axis and t-axis on a discrete structure exactly as one would do on a continuous manifold. (I do understand that you are not the one who wants to do this!) This is inappropriate. On a causal set (our discrete structure) one cannot rely on cartesian axes for obtaining the space and time values of an event. So, it is true, as you wrote, that x and t are not defined in between the points, BUT they are not even defined *on* the points: if one insists for having definite (x, t) coordinates for an event, he should embed the whole causal set in a manifold, and read out the coordinates from the latter. These would be coordinates relative to a specific reference frame. But one of the nice features of causal sets is that they describe the pure causal structure of events while abstracting from any specific embedding/frame, in the same way as Lorentz distance is invariant for all inertial observers.
So I still do not see why it should be easier to be trapped in the erroneous belief that information might hop from point to point, and event 'sideways', w.r.t. a discrete structure, than to be trapped in the analogous error w.r.t. a continuous structure, picturing information jumping outside the light cone.
But, as I said, this was really a minor point. Thanks for the pointer to Hawking and Sachs. I have one for you, if you are interested: a
one-page discussion of causal sets by R. Sorkin. My essay is in line with those basic ideas, but departs from them in the causet growth dynamics, which in my approach is algorithmic and fully deterministic.
Tommaso
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 3, 2011 @ 13:44 GMT
Tommaso,
It wasn't too hard to get your name right - I just copied it from your postings! ;) Seriously, I am used to everyone butchering my own name (especially when they try to pronounce it) so I am sensitive to such things.
Anyway, I think I see your point. I'll have to study causal sets a bit more closely, though before I can say for certain. I'll take a look at Sorkin's article. Note that Hawking and Sachs do approach it from a set-theoretic standpoint.
Cheers,
Ian
report post as inappropriate
Ken Wharton wrote on Mar. 1, 2011 @ 05:15 GMT
Hi Ian,
Another nicely constructed and argued essay -- and of course I'm glad you arrived at the conclusion that the next question to ask is whether it's possible to have a "quantum" theory that's not discrete. I'm looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts on that topic.
Only a couple of nitpicks:
- I didn't follow your leap from "imprecision" to "discontinuity". Yes, measurements are imprecise. Does that mean the knowledge we gain from them is "discrete"? Well, maybe, but that's not how I tend to think of the word. But then in your conclusion you used the word "discontinuous", which I think is a much stronger claim (and more akin to how I view "discrete" in the first place). Was that word a slip, or is that what you really mean?
- In my view of the world, "Classical, Newtonian physics" did indeed have competition after 1788 via Lagrange. A point I like to make, because I still don't think that people have properly wrapped their heads around how different variational principles are from what Lee Smolin calls the "Newtonian Schema".
Best,
Ken
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 1, 2011 @ 15:44 GMT
Hey Ken,
Thanks! I've read yours, by the way. I just haven't had a chance to post my comments yet (or did I?). Regarding "discontinuous" v. "discrete" I do, admittedly, use them interchangeably in that essay, though they are not necessarily the same. In the sense that I'm using it, I'm saying truly continuous measurements are not technologically (perhaps physically) possible due to the imprecision of measurements. I'm not sure how to better explain it, but basically continuous measurements require instantaneous measurements (or at least the ability to make them) and the latter are physically impossible.
I'm not sure I see how Lagrange's variational principles differ from Newtonian mechanics. In fact, Newton was the first to develop variational principles (famously, though perhaps apocryphally, in a debate with the Bernoulli brothers).
Ian
report post as inappropriate
Constantin Zaharia Leshan wrote on Mar. 3, 2011 @ 10:45 GMT
Dear Readers,
There are three kinds of the essays in our contest: 1) the essays with original physics research where all physics' information was created by their authors. Often such essays seem to have errors because they often contradict orthodox theory. 2) There are essays-stories about physics which contain generally known physics' information copied from the textbooks or papers and author's commentaries (for example Jarmo Makela, Singh, Durham, Funakoshi and so on). Such essays have ARTISTIC VALUE only but not scientific value; usually these essays-stories do not have any errors by definition because all physics' information was copied from the textbooks and other published papers. 3) There are essays of mixed type containing mixed information. It is clear that the authors of the essays-stories have advantages because their essays never contain errors since all Physics' information was copied from the textbooks.
What kind of the essay must FQXi community support? If we support the essays-stories, we'll transform FQXi into the entertainment community. For example, instead of my ''interpretation of quantum mechanics'' I could send the jokes about Bohr, Einstein or stories like Gamov's ''Mr. Tompkins in paperback''. It would be very interesting and fun. Another option is to create artistic essays-discussions with Einstein, Bohr, or Aristotle following the example of Jarmo Makela. In this context, the next logical step is to organize a banquet for the authors of essays where we tell jokes and funny stories about physics. What is our purpose?
Since the goals of the FQXi (the "Contest") are to: Encourage and support rigorous, innovative, and influential thinking about foundational questions in physics and cosmology; Identify and reward top thinkers in foundational questions, therefore I ask readers to vote for essays with original research rather than for essays-stories. In this way we'll encourage the fundamental physics research but not entertainment essays.
Sincerely,
Constantin
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 3, 2011 @ 13:40 GMT
Dude, did you even read my essay?? I didn't copy anything from a textbook. As far as I am aware, my argument about the radar gun is unique. Whether or not it is correct is another matter that can be debated in a professional manner. But I fail to see how it does not count as original research.
As for your contention about FQXi essays, you have clearly missed the point of many of them. In addition you seem to think that FQXi's sole purpose is to challenge the "ruling paradigm." That is not true. FQXi's intent is to ask meaningful questions about the universe and stimulate discussion about those questions. I think it does an admirable job in that regard.
report post as inappropriate
Constantin Leshan replied on Mar. 3, 2011 @ 17:20 GMT
I wrote in the above post about the PHYSICAL information and physical laws. Your argument about radar guns is not about PHYSICS; For example, the uncertainty principle is a physical information but not guns, cars, ships and so on - It's about technology.
Your essay use generally known physics information that was NOT created by you. Therefore it is true that the essay contain physical information copied from the textbooks and Internet. I understand that really you learned all this information at the University and then you prepared your essay using your memory. However, it is the same - your essay contains GENERALLY KNOWN PHYSICAL INFORMATION copied from external sources.
For example, infnitesimal changes, parabolic functions, Zeno's paradox, Doppler effect, Spekkens' epistemic interpretation of quantum mechanics - it is generally known information copied from textbooks. If you comments about quantum mechanics and SR it does not means that it is YOUR information: ''Quantum field theory combines quantum mechanics with special relativity and so technically deals with a at (Euclidean) spacetime". You are NOT the creator of this physical information. The essays filled with such information and authors commentaries is not original and contains information copied from general sources as textbooks, papers, Internet and so on.
Please show me the PHYSICAL information created by YOU in your essay.
Also, I don't see any proofs in your essay that the Universe is digital or analog. The discussions about radar guns prove nothing about reality.
Constantin
report post as inappropriate
Member Dean Rickles replied on Mar. 4, 2011 @ 10:49 GMT
Dear Constantin,
The FQXi is the "Foundational" Questions Institute. The idea is to probe the foundations of pre-existing theories, perhaps propose modifications to these foundations, or even (if absolutely necessary) to propose entirely new foundations. But really, proposing ENTIRELY NEW, completely original physics should be a last resort. I can think of no example where this method has been fruitful in the past. Take the discovery of special relativity, for example. There is a case in which the equations (the Lorentz transformations) were already "in the textbooks". Einstein reinterpreted them, employing a foundational analysis. Would you accuse Einstein of plagiarising here? An equation on its own doesn't tell us much. We need to know what it could mean. There are, in physics, usually (most probably always) multiple options in how we understand the mapping between equations and reality.
Your request for statements that "prove something about reality" must be, in the end, a request for a foundational (or interpretive) analysis (and an epistemological one at that). The point of many of these competitions (and the submissions) has been to probe just what can be said about reality GIVEN OUR THEORIES. You may think you are being a hard-nosed scientist, a la Feynman or Pauli perhaps, but you are in fact just espousing a very naive philosophical position. Feynman and Pauli might have spoken in a similar way, but their actual work revealed a very different, more sophisticated philosophical understanding.
Finally, I have to agree with Robert Spoljaric that your beef ought to be with FQXi.
Best,
Dean
report post as inappropriate
Lev Goldfarb replied on Mar. 4, 2011 @ 14:46 GMT
[ First, my apologies to Ian for 'using' his page. However, who knows, there might be some benefits to FQXi ;-) ]
"But really, proposing ENTIRELY NEW, completely original physics should be a last resort. I can think of no example where this method has been fruitful in the past."
Dear Dean,
The whole point is this: Can the development of physics continue successfully along the path similar to its historic past, or we reached the point of 'no return', when we simply have to begin anew? It appears that FQXi should allow for the latter to be at least one of the main possibilities. By the way, a number of physicists, including Lee Smolin, do believe in such possibility.
There are also a number of philosophers who firmly believe in that possibility.
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 4, 2011 @ 22:51 GMT
Hi Lev,
Personally, I think FQXi *is* open to the kind of radical reassessment you suggest. It might be that the length restrictions of the essay contest are such that it is very difficult to get meaningful points across. Perhaps what is needed is a new journal dedicated solely to really radical, speculative ideas (as long as they are logically consistent, well-posed, and, in relevant cases, experimentally testable). I'm certainly in favor of such things. But I also think there's room for the other types of foundational work we're talking about here.
Cheers,
Ian
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 4, 2011 @ 23:02 GMT
[God, I hate the software they use for this forum. I find it utterly confusing when trying to track multiple conversations, regardless of whether I use "chronological order" or "most recent first."]
Anyway, I want to know why Constantin has a problem with asking questions about technology. First of all, "technology" (including our senses, but I certainly hope he is not an Aristotelian) is the *only* way in which we can learn about the physics of the universe. And this was precisely my point: technology limits exactly how much we can know about the physics of the universe. I really don't see how I could make that point any clearer nor do I see how that *isn't* relevant to the topic; actually, it has everything to *do* with the topic!
report post as inappropriate
Constantin Leshan replied on Mar. 5, 2011 @ 08:23 GMT
About ''a problem with asking questions about technology''. I wrote in the first post about absence of original physical information in I. Durham's essay; He replayed his essay has ''unique'' information about radar guns. I replied that it is not physical information but technology. The discussion about Doppler effect is neither original nor new.
In general, it seems there is a lot of professional scientists here which simply ''makes money'' using FQXi and send senseless essays; For example, recently I found flaws in Tommaso Bolognesi, Dr. Elliot McGucken, Shirazi, Wolfe essays. If we want money then please create the true scientific papers in stile of Physical Review Letters but not simple stories about physics, radar guns, cars, women and so on. It is not the artistic magazine. I don't see any novel ideas in your essays. In general, the Durham's essay seems to be the collection of short stories without any logical connection between them and without any central idea. I'm surprised that FQXi community supports such simple stories. In future I'll try to create a beautiful dialogue with Einstein with great artistic value or the best story about physics filled with common information. It seems that our community loves just such senseless essays.
report post as inappropriate
Constantin Leshan replied on Mar. 5, 2011 @ 18:06 GMT
OK, I agree that you have some original (technological or physical?) information about radar guns. Do you think this information deserves the FQXi prize?
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 5, 2011 @ 19:17 GMT
> The discussion about Doppler effect is neither original nor new.
My thing about the radar gun wasn't about the Doppler effect. It was about the measurement of it.
> OK, I agree that you have some original (technological or physical?) information about radar guns.
> Do you think this information deserves the FQXi prize?
That's not up to me.
report post as inappropriate
hide replies
Juan R. González-Álvarez wrote on Mar. 3, 2011 @ 11:30 GMT
Dear Constantin Zaharia Leshan,
I sympathize with your views.
I only want to remark two things. The first, that it is not true that the "essays-stories" do not have any errors because were copied from textbooks and papers. I have given some examples of the contrary both in the forums and in my own Essay.
The second, that I do not consider Singh' Essay to be only of artistic value (see my 'review' of it as well!).
report post as inappropriate
Constantin Leshan replied on Mar. 3, 2011 @ 17:53 GMT
Dear Juan R. González-Álvarez,
Thank you for support. In my view, the FQXi prize deserves the people who really are able to create PHYSICS; the prize is not for writers and copiers.
There are a lot of the essays and I do not have time to analyze all. Nevertheless, I'll analyze the Singh' Essay more carefully.
Regards,
Constantin
report post as inappropriate
Lev Goldfarb replied on Mar. 4, 2011 @ 01:17 GMT
I must agree with Constantin Leshan: if, indeed, FQXI intends
"to catalyze, support, and disseminate research on questions at the foundations of physics and cosmology, particularly new frontiers and innovative ideas integral to a deep understanding of reality but unlikely to be supported by conventional funding sources"
the mission which requires a *very rear* kind of expertise, especially now when our overloaded schedules meet with the absolutely unprecedented in the history of science transitional period. This very rear expertise should be found and used effectively. Otherwise, the mission will not be believable, and, which is more, will only *undermine* the future similar undertakings.
report post as inappropriate
Lev Goldfarb replied on Mar. 4, 2011 @ 07:49 GMT
I'm sorry, I mistyped: of course I meant "very rare" rather than "very rear" ;-))
report post as inappropriate
Robert Spoljaric replied on Mar. 4, 2011 @ 09:28 GMT
Gentleman,
My essay deals with nothing but foundations, and so I can understand your frustration, but if you have an axe to grind you should take it up with FQXI not Dr. Durham!
Robert
report post as inappropriate
Lev Goldfarb replied on Mar. 4, 2011 @ 13:10 GMT
Robert,
It goes without saying that my remark has nothing to do with Ian.
report post as inappropriate
Constantin Leshan replied on Mar. 4, 2011 @ 17:07 GMT
Dear Dean Rickles,
You're defending I. Durham because you have the same essay, - a simple story about physics. Your essay also is filled with general known information only. You are not able even to say if the world is digital or analog: ''The physical world.. is as digital or analogue as the theories themselves''. Today I read Durham's essay but tomorrow I'll analize your essay. I found flaws in 4 essays already, your essay will be number 5.
Regards
Constantin
report post as inappropriate
Member Dean Rickles replied on Mar. 4, 2011 @ 17:49 GMT
Dear Constantin
You just evaded the two points I directed specifically AT YOU (not in defence of Prof. Durham, who I'm quite sure is perfectly capable of defending himself).
On another matter, you wrote: "Another option is to create artistic essays-discussions with Einstein, Bohr, or Aristotle following the example of Jarmo Makela."
Simplicio: imagine someone thinking you could make science out of dialogues like that?
Sagredo: I'd never do that. No scientific merit could emerge from such a thing.
Salviati: Agreed. It's just not science. Though it might have some artistic value.
---------------------------------
You also wrote: "Today I read Durham's essay but tomorrow I'll analize your essay. I found flaws in 4 essays already, your essay will be number 5."
Forgive me if I don't quake in my boots at the prospect...
Best,
Dean
report post as inappropriate
hide replies
James Putnam wrote on Mar. 4, 2011 @ 15:28 GMT
It seems odd that this discussion and the one immediately above it should be occurring in Dr. Durham's forum. He does not agree with my ideas; but, I have found him to be a gentleman and as open minded a scholar as I have ever had a discussion with. He is a valuable resource for which I have not yet had to pay. I think that no one has a better chance for having their ideas evaluated by professionals than what takes place here at fqxi.org. I think that my ideas are great. However, until professionals agree, they remain not great. That agreement should it ever come must be for good scientific reasons and given willingly by qualified others. Until then, promoting my ideas are my problem and not theirs.
James
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 4, 2011 @ 22:53 GMT
Thanks James. I appreciate the kind words (they actually made my day!).
report post as inappropriate
Robert Spoljaric replied on Mar. 5, 2011 @ 12:56 GMT
Dear Prof. Durham,
You are indeed a gentleman, and as such I feel somewhat guilty about you reading my essay. I sincerely thank you for taking an interest, and hope you find it interesting.
I would, however, like to clarify a point I made on the Feb 25th post. 'The Light' as defined in my paper is epistomological. However, it is the *basis* of Relativistic Mechanics, and as such entails a future ontological commitment. There is much left unsaid, but I don't want to spoil your fun!
All the best,
Robert
report post as inappropriate
Robert Spoljaric replied on Mar. 5, 2011 @ 12:57 GMT
Sorry that should read Relativistic Dynamics.
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 5, 2011 @ 21:54 GMT
Robert,
Don't feel guilty at all! I'm happy to read as many essays as I can squeeze in between now and the deadline. I'll shuffle yours and James' (did you write on this year James? I'll check) to the top of the my list.
Ian
report post as inappropriate
James Putnam replied on Mar. 6, 2011 @ 16:09 GMT
Dr. Durham,
Yes I have an entry. Its down on the second or third floor. Actually I have enterred all three of the contests so far. I think my first one was perhaps the most important one. I don't do well; but, I think that that is understandable. Almost everything I write is at odds with accepted theory. I don't remember if I have said to you that I believe that theory went wrong right from the start when it choose to make mass an indefinable property. My own work begins by not making either force or mass indefinable. I define them both in terms of distance and time the properties of their empirical evidence. After that act there is no way for the rest of theory to remain the same. Anyway, I write what I think and do not expect easy acceptance or high ratings. This contest was the harder of the three for me. I felt that answering the question from the view of theoretical physics required one to be well versed in quantum theory. That is still a weak area for me. I am working on it. For that reason I chose to mix a little bit of new theory with some prose and general thoughts. I think we have some good leading essays. It is another educational year because of this contest.
James
report post as inappropriate
hide replies
Chris Kennedy wrote on Mar. 6, 2011 @ 21:06 GMT
Ian - Outstanding Essay!
As an educator - I always look for how understandable an essay can be to nonprofessionals and you hit this out of the park! I think being inclusive is very important as many outside the field often have valuable contributions. You do an excellent job of showing that the act of measuring will always be a weaker accuracy link that what is actually measured. This of course applies to the passage of time as well in our pursuit to determine if it is discrete or continuous.
By the way, if gravity is like a painting, then the problem is that we can't see the individual brush strokes since none have been detected. We assume (well, some of us, but not me) that it must be made of individual strokes despite Einstein's original theory telling us that it is the warping of the canvas itself that gives us the painting. I once had a crazy theory that gravity will ultimately be determined to be a "London Force" of EM. If that ever turns out to be true - at least we will have brush strokes, just not the kind we were looking for.
I will be sure to keep a copy of your essay with me so that the next time I get pulled over for speeding, I can point out the inaccuracies of the radar detection device!
Great job!
Chris
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 10, 2011 @ 02:56 GMT
Wow! Thanks so much Chris! I, too, think of myself as an educator. I come from a family of them as does my wife (both my parents, both her parents, my sister, sister-in-law, my grandfather, aunts, uncles, etc. - it's in the blood). You know, your idea about gravity isn't that crazy. A similar thought occurred to me recently (though not specifically related to a London force). I think there is a much deeper connection between gravity and E&M than we realize.
report post as inappropriate
James Lee Hoover wrote on Mar. 7, 2011 @ 18:59 GMT
Ian,
Your argument is objective and logical. As you seem to say, our view of reality has distortions. I like to compare it to our view of space through earth's atmosphere.
Great essay.
Jim Hoover
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 10, 2011 @ 02:53 GMT
Thanks Jim! That's actually a great comparison, by the way.
report post as inappropriate
Constantinos Ragazas wrote on Mar. 7, 2011 @ 19:06 GMT
Hello Ian,
I've been seeking a dialog with you since my post under your forum on math and physics last spring. This contest provides me another opportunity. We agree generally on the notion that we can only know our measurements (and observations) of 'what is', but not 'what is' the Universe. That much I remember from our brief exchange.
Picking up on this general theme I ask that you consider the following result to be found in my essay. One among many, but what I consider the key finding. The Rosetta Stone, as it leads to many other 'translations'.
Planck's Law of blackbody radiation I prove in my
essay is an exact mathematical tautology that describes the interaction of measurement. The mathematical derivation is simple and mathematically irrifutable. It uses continuous methods and does not use 'energy quanta' and statistical mechanics.
I further argue that this tautology explains why the
blackbody spectrum obtained experimentally is indistinguishable from the theoretic curve obtained from Planck's Law. Certainly, a mathematical tautology that describes measurement will be indistinguishable from the measurements it describes.
Please read my
essay and comment on this result. I also ask your support in getting this result 'peer reviewed' by the 'panel of judges'.
All the best,
Constantinos Ragazas
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 10, 2011 @ 02:52 GMT
Hi Constantinos,
My apologies for not seeing your postings on the forum. Life got a little crazy last summer and hasn't let up. But I am hoping for a renewed respite period here soon. At any rate, I will add your essay to the stack I'm taking to Dallas with me. It wil take me a couple of weeks to get through all of them, but I do promise to do so and to leave comments.
Cheers,
Ian
report post as inappropriate
Vladimir F. Tamari wrote on Mar. 8, 2011 @ 15:20 GMT
Dear Ian,
Firstly please accept my condolences for the loss of your father-in-law. I lost mine many years ago but still think of him with great affection and respect.
Your interesting discussion of Doppler effects in connection with the speed of light and relativity reminded me of the fascinating insights and simulations of these topics by my friend
Gabriel LaFreniere though he does not deal with the question of granularity of space as such. I would also greatly appreciate it you can read my fqxi essay and the 2005
Beautiful Universe paper on which it is based. I know this means you have to wade through my obviously speculative or half-baked ideas, but it all makes a lot of sense - at least to me! :)
With best wishes, Vladimir
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 10, 2011 @ 02:50 GMT
Dear Vladimir,
Thanks so much. It has been a bit like losing a father (mine is thankfully still alive and well).
I'd be happy to take a look at your essay! I'm spending a week at a conference in Dallas soon and am going to take a stack of FQXi essays with me to read. As for half-baked ideas, some of them turn out to be the best ideas in the end!
Cheers,
Ian
report post as inappropriate
Vladimir F. Tamari replied on Mar. 20, 2011 @ 14:15 GMT
Dear Ian
I hope you are feeling better about your loss. I just saw your note dated the day before the Japan earthquake...Sorry to respond to it so late and say thanks for making the effort to read my fqxi paper. I hope it encourages you to look at my earlier longer paper where I have spelled out my theory. Enjoy your conference.
Best wishes from Vladimir
report post as inappropriate
Peter wrote on Mar. 9, 2011 @ 13:09 GMT
Hello,
Several mistakes right from your abstract
“In this essay I argue that both classical and quantum physics include limits that prevent us from definitively answering that question. “
Limits are established experimentally in physics, not through argumentation.
“That classical physics does so is rather unexpected. In fact, I argue that classical physics is itself really nothing more than a convenient approximation.”
What is new about this that requires arguing about? Every physics graduate student knows classical physics is an approximation.
“Either way, it turns out that our knowledge of the universe is discrete and so it is extraordinarily difficult, perhaps even impossible, to determine the underlying continuity of the universe itself.”
What is discrete about this knowledge about the universe?
X^2+y^2 = 1
Don’t math equations constitute knowledge or you exclude them from that set?
I was really disappointed by this essay.
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 10, 2011 @ 02:46 GMT
"Limits are established experimentally in physics, not through argumentation."
Um, yeah, that was my point.
"Every physics graduate student knows classical physics is an approximation."
Take a look at some of the essays here by other physicists and you'll find plenty for whom classical physics is apparently not an approximation.
"What is discrete about this knowledge about the universe?"
Did you even read the essay?
"Don’t math equations constitute knowledge or you exclude them from that set?"
Now THAT is an intriguing - and very valid - question. Too bad it was buried in an otherwise condescending post.
"I was really disappointed by this essay."
That's your prerogative. I can't please everyone all of the time.
"
report post as inappropriate
Alan Lowey wrote on Mar. 10, 2011 @ 12:22 GMT
Dear Ian,
Thank you for replying to my questions earlier w.r.t a helical model for the creation of structure which we observe today. I have been pursuing this line of enquiry and have hit upon something quite extraordinary. I've just talked about it on Edwin Klingman's essay page, so I'll copy and paste it over:
On day-by-day thinking about the novel idea of a mechanical Archimedes screw in empty space representing the force of gravity by gravitons, I have deduced an explanation for the
galaxy rotation curve anomaly.
The helical screw model gives matter a new fundamental shape and dynamics which the standard model lacks imo. This non-spherical emission of gravitons is in stark contrast to the Newtonian/Einsteinian acceptance that "all things exert a gravitatinal field equally in all directions". This asymmetry of the gravitational field allows for the stars to experience a greater pull towards the galactic plane, due to their rotation giving more order to the inner fluid matter of the stellar core. Both the structure of the emitter and the absorber of the gravity particles is important. It also has implications for hidden matter at the centre of the galaxies..
I've given the idea some more thought and come to the conclusion that the stars furthest from the galactic centre must have a more 'bipolar nature' than the matter of stars of the inner halo presumably. This is the reason they have wandered towards the galactic plane whilst the halo stars have not. The outer stars' configuration means they experience a greater interaction with the flux pattern of the graviton field. Are the stars of the outer arms simply spinning faster?? We are on the outer edge of a spiral arm and so this would fit with this hypothesis. Our sun could have spin which is higher that that of the average halo star. This relationship between spin and distance from the galactic centre is a fundamental feature which ties in with the suggested mechanism of their creation.
All that is needed is an additional factor of stellar spin speed as well as it's mass and distance from the galactic centre. The relationship should then give calculated values which match those of the observed.
Best wishes,
Alan Lowey
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 20, 2011 @ 01:23 GMT
Interesting. I'll have to give your ideas some deeper thought before I can comment further, but I have a soft spot for astronomy. :)
report post as inappropriate
Author Yuri Danoyan+ wrote on Mar. 10, 2011 @ 19:46 GMT
Thank You for advance for comment my essay
http://www.fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/946
report post as inappropriate
Russell Jurgensen wrote on Mar. 11, 2011 @ 18:51 GMT
Dear Ian,
I wanted to be sure to say hello before the commenting period is over. I really appreciated your essay and how you discuss that the universe is such that our theories and observations will always be subject to interpretation. Your essay demonstrates a great interest in the science of physics as well as the philosophy of physics. I hope you will have a chance to read my comment on Dean Rickle's essay about the philosophy of how we look at our observations.
Thank you for a thought provoking essay!
Kind regards, Russell Jurgensen
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 20, 2011 @ 01:49 GMT
Thanks for the kind words Russell! I will try to pop over to Dean's essay and read your comments.
report post as inappropriate
Petra wrote on Mar. 12, 2011 @ 11:50 GMT
Mr Durham
A very good essay, thank you. But you say of the subject, which is of physics ~ 'we will likely never know unless we can nd a clever way around the problem of determining the continuity of something through a discontinuous lens.'
You should have found this you have read the essay of 2020 vision. I did, but in thought not in reading. Do see my post. You lead this and I expect read each others? I was interested in your view but saw none from you there. I commend it and more, and hope you support science not yourselves. I wish you and your family well.
Petra
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 20, 2011 @ 01:48 GMT
Thank you Petra. I am not sure to what you are referring regarding the essay of 2020 vision.
report post as inappropriate
Constantin Zaharia Leshan wrote on Mar. 13, 2011 @ 16:07 GMT
Dear Ian Durham,
I found some errors in this essay:
You write: ''Any interaction necessarily requires an exchange of information''.
It is an erroneous statement; I can show you an example of interaction without any exchange of information. The Black Hole's event horizon is a boundary in spacetime through which matter and light can only pass inward towards the mass of the black...
view entire post
Dear Ian Durham,
I found some errors in this essay:
You write: ''Any interaction necessarily requires an exchange of information''.
It is an erroneous statement; I can show you an example of interaction without any exchange of information. The Black Hole's event horizon is a boundary in spacetime through which matter and light can only pass inward towards the mass of the black hole. Nothing, not even light, can escape from inside the event horizon. Therefore, if a body cross the event horizon, the exchange of information between the Black Hole and falling body is not possible because information can flow in one direction only. Thus, this statement is wrong.
You write: ''This idea simply formalizes the somewhat intuitive notion that causality is somehow related to continuity. If spacetime is discontinuous, how do we know that this information couldn't jump around' from point to point? Continuity guarantees that the information follows a nice, orderly 'path' between A and B. This should make it easy to see the conceptual attraction of a continuous reality''.
1) In quantum mechanics particles don't follow a nice, orderly 'path' between A and B, and the position of a free particle is uncertain - so we can consider space as discontinuous. In spite of fact that particles don't follow a nice, orderly 'path' between A and B and all macroscopic bodies are made of quantum particles, we do not observe any violation of causality in our everyday life or macroscopic experiments. Thus, your statement is wrong: even if the space and behavior of the particles is discontinuous, the causality holds in our everyday life.
You write: ''Now, any attempt to measure velocity (or just about any other physical quantity, for that matter) requires an interaction between the observer and the system under observation (sorry folks, there's just no way around that)''.
It is an erroneous statement; we can know the velocity of a particle (or even a macroscopic body) without measurement/interaction. Imagine the radioactive decay of an atomic nucleus when two its clusters/parts fly in opposite directions. If we measure the energy (mass and velocity) of one cluster/part, we'll know the mass and velocity of another cluster without measurement (interaction) with this object.
Another example - we can know the velocity of distant star without interacting with one by observing its motion concerning other stars. in fact, we do not interact with this star but we know its velocity.
You write: ''Though the universe itself has cleverly prevented us from determining whether or not it is continuous, I'd like to believe that it is''
It is an erroneous statement; we can determine whether or not the Universe is continuous by observing the expansion of the Universe: If the distance between galaxy clusters is increasing today, everything must have been closer together in the past. It means that in the first microseconds of expansion the Universe was very small and therefore finite in volume. Since the Universe has a finite age, the Universe will have the finite volume always, in spite of expansion. Since the Universe has a finite volume, it must have the edges (holes), because all objects with finite volumes have borders. And the space with holes is discontinuous because a hole is the absence of spacetime. Thus, since the Universe is expanding, therefore it must be finite and discontinuous. Do you see any flaws in this reasoning? Hence, the Universe is discontinuous but not continuous.
Sincerely,
Constantin
view post as summary
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 20, 2011 @ 01:46 GMT
Constantin,
The
black hole information paradox is called a paradox for a reason. If you'd like to argue that it isn't actually a paradox, then feel free. But its existence does not a priori prove that my statement was erroneous.
report post as inappropriate
John Merryman wrote on Mar. 13, 2011 @ 17:07 GMT
Ian,
"Thus it seems that while it is clearly mathematically possible for an instantaneous velocity to exist, we are physically prevented from ever measuring one!"
Would it be possible for "an instantaneous velocity" to physically exist? It begs the question of whether time is an underlaying basis of motion, on which those mathematically dimensionless points of instantaneous velocity can exist, or is it an effect of motion, such that a dimensionless point of time would freeze the very motion creating the events located on that sequence? Sort of like trying to take a picture with the shutter speed set at zero.
Does the present move along this dimension from past to future, or does the changing configuration of what is present turn the future into the past?
Do we travel the fourth dimension from yesterday to tomorrow, or does tomorrow become yesterday because the earth rotates?
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 20, 2011 @ 01:38 GMT
John,
That's actually a very intriguing observation (although your last sentence is really just an argument of semantics).
report post as inappropriate
Member Moshe Rozali wrote on Mar. 14, 2011 @ 19:26 GMT
Hi there, I enjoyed this essay enormously. To point out one connection to my essay - you correctly identify a connection between causality (and the Lorentzian structure of spacetime) and continuity. I believe this relation can be strengthened by using some ideas from effective field theories, which are elaborated on in my essay, which I offer for your perusal
http://www.fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/856
I also point out that continuity of spacetime in short distances, as seems to be required by this argument, is not necessarily in conflict with fundamental sort of discreteness, albeit of a different type.
Cheers,
Moshe
report post as inappropriate
Constantin Leshan replied on Mar. 15, 2011 @ 16:32 GMT
Dear Moshe,
You write: ''you correctly identify a connection between causality and continuity''.
It is a wrong statement, I can show that causality holds even if the Universe is discontinuous.
Durham has the same error: ''This idea simply formalizes the somewhat intuitive notion that causality is somehow related to continuity. If spacetime is discontinuous, how do we know that...
view entire post
Dear Moshe,
You write: ''you correctly identify a connection between causality and continuity''.
It is a wrong statement, I can show that causality holds even if the Universe is discontinuous.
Durham has the same error: ''This idea simply formalizes the somewhat intuitive notion that causality is somehow related to continuity. If spacetime is discontinuous, how do we know that this information couldn't jump around' from point to point? Continuity guarantees that the information follows a nice, orderly 'path' between A and B. This should make it easy to see the conceptual attraction of a continuous reality''.
In quantum mechanics particles don't follow a nice, orderly 'path' between A and B, and the position of a free particle is uncertain - so we can consider space as discontinuous. In spite of fact that particles don't follow a nice, orderly ''path'' between A and B and all macroscopic bodies are made of quantum particles, we do not observe any violation of causality in our everyday life or macroscopic experiments. Thus, your statement is wrong: even if the space and behavior of the particles is discontinuous, the causality holds in our everyday life.
Durham wrote: ''Though the universe itself has cleverly prevented us from determining whether or not it is continuous, I'd like to believe that it is''
It is an erroneous statement; we can determine whether or not the Universe is continuous by observing the expansion of the Universe: If the distance between galaxy clusters is increasing today, everything must have been closer together in the past. It means that in the first microseconds of expansion the Universe was very small and therefore finite in volume. Since the Universe has a finite age, the Universe will have the finite volume always, in spite of expansion. Since the Universe has a finite volume, it must have the edges (holes), because all objects with finite volumes have borders. And the space with holes is discontinuous because a hole is the absence of spacetime. Thus, since the Universe is expanding, therefore it must be finite and discontinuous. Do you see any flaws in this reasoning? Hence, the Universe is discontinuous but not continuous.
Thus, Durham's essay is fundamentally wrong: the Universe is not continuous but
discontinuous. If you vote for Durham's continuous Universe then you vote for extinction of science and humanity - we need the true Science to survive. How Durham's essay can advance physics? I don't see any new ideas in his essay; it is a simple discussion about physics with erroneous statements as if the Universe is continuous (see above). The discontinuous Universe is better because it can explain gravity and
quantum mechanics in the same model. Durham's essay cannot change the Science, it is an erroneous statement that the Universe is continuous, it is a step back to the recession of physics. The
discontinuous spacetime allow teleportation and can really advance physics.
Sincerely
Constantin
view post as summary
report post as inappropriate
Moshe replied on Mar. 16, 2011 @ 01:06 GMT
I’ve written quite a precise and technical argument, based on general consideration of effective quantum field theories, but I think it is based on the same intuition. Certainly there could be loopholes in the argument (I've pointed out some myself), but if you choose a discrete model out of a hat without carefully considering the question of Lorentz invariance (and hence causality), chances are that it is either inconsistent or in violations of known facts about the real world, or both.
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 20, 2011 @ 01:12 GMT
Thanks Moshe. I'll print your essay out and add it to the stack I'm taking with me to a conference this week. Cheers!
Ian
report post as inappropriate
Robert Spoljaric replied on Mar. 21, 2011 @ 03:32 GMT
It sounds to me like you will be taking a filing cabinet worth of papers!
Robert
report post as inappropriate
Robert Spoljaric replied on Mar. 21, 2011 @ 03:44 GMT
Dear Prof. Durham,
Good luck at the conference,and I look forward to your comments.
Robert
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 25, 2011 @ 02:55 GMT
Thanks! It's been a busy conference and I am slowly getting through the stack of papers. Bad Internet connections though. :(
report post as inappropriate
hide replies
Eckard Blumschein wrote on Mar. 15, 2011 @ 08:38 GMT
Dear Ian Durham,
Since you did not yet answered my question you give me an excuse for not yet voting for you. Admittedly, I will on the one hand appreciate you winning the contest because many of your opinions are close to mine in contrast to less thoughtful and more speculative candidates.
On the other hand, I do not see your uses of Hebrew language justified. The common language of this contest is American English. Given your essay will be printed in the Scientific American, couldn't it be felt a provocation?
Do not take me wrong. When I criticize aleph_2 this does not have any antisemitic reason. Incidentally, Georg Cantor's mother was a Catholic. Hence Georg was not Jewish.
My recent reply to Georgina in my thread 833 tries to reveal the basic mistake behind the Poincaré/Einstein synchronization. Again, this must not be seen as an attack against a Jew. Nonetheless, I see us obliged to not deny serious consequences. Science must not be based on belief.
I wonder how readily you ignored possible consequences from the finding of WMAP: The geometry of universe seems to be flat. Isn't it a foundational question whether or not a basic theory is possibly wrong? I contempt all those who are trying to deceive themselves. In the long run this may only lead from one paradox to the next one. Wasn't the 20th century a century of abundant paradoxes in mathematics and physics?
I repeat my question concerning deception.
Sincerely,
Eckard
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 20, 2011 @ 01:36 GMT
Regarding the Hebrew, it was immaterial to the essay, was supplied with a translation, and was there to honor my father-in-law who was Jewish. I find the mere fact that you brought this up to be disturbing. It would be one thing if I wrote an important portion of the essay in Hebrew, but all I did was put a portion of the dedication in Hebrew. Why the &$%^ should you care?
I don't understand your comment about WMAP. Unfortunately, I do not remember your question from earlier. I have been very busy and I find the software that runs this forum to be annoying and confusing.
report post as inappropriate
basudeba wrote on Mar. 15, 2011 @ 15:26 GMT
Dear Sir,
Your examples of ontic state may be correct to some extent (subject to variations of its mechanical functioning), but that of epistemic state is not correct for the simple reason that knowledge is not probabilistic. Knowledge is the result of measurement and it is the same as wave-function collapse, which freezes the state. Hence, as Spekkens points out, it is no longer...
view entire post
Dear Sir,
Your examples of ontic state may be correct to some extent (subject to variations of its mechanical functioning), but that of epistemic state is not correct for the simple reason that knowledge is not probabilistic. Knowledge is the result of measurement and it is the same as wave-function collapse, which freezes the state. Hence, as Spekkens points out, it is no longer probabilistic. We have discussed this point elaborately in our essay.
We have defined reality precisely and shown that Nature is mathematical only in specified ways. Berkeley’s so-called paradox is not a paradox at all if you view in the right context. The original equation represented the curvature of a parabola and the relationship between its projections along x and y axes respectively. The small increase in y will lead to corresponding increase in the value for x. Till such time, the equations are alright. But the problem arises when we start manipulating the figures out of context. In the present context it becomes physically meaningless. For example, if the cost of 5 bikes equals the cost of a car, the cost of 1 bike equals the cost of 1/5 of a car. But what is 1/5 of a car? It is a meaningless statement. These meaningless manipulations lie at the heart of the present problem.
The simplest answer to Zeno’s paradox is that velocity is related to the mass of the body that is moving, the energy used (force applied) to move it and the total density of and the totality of the energy operating on the field. These are all mobile units against the back drop of the field that is static with reference to these. Middle of the distance is related to the frame of reference, which is relatively static with reference to the other mobile aspects. Thus, it is like comparing position and momentum. They do not commute. Hence there is no paradox, which is borne out of experience. While the middle of the distance is gradually reduced, the velocity is not reduced by the same proportion.
Ever since Newton propagated his second law, acceleration has been highly misunderstood by the scientific community. Before we give a proper explanation for the mechanism of acceleration, let us analyze the equation F = ma.
Without any qualifying word, F here is to be understood as any impressed force. The function of a force is to displace bodies from their position. The force can be impressed by a source only. After the force is impressed, the body is displaced. Thereafter, its contact with the source is cut off. Now the body moves with inertia, which remains constant in the absence of any other force. Thus, the equation should have been F = mv.
There may be occasions where the source impressing the force moves with the body. One example is an engine pushing a train or a cab. Here after the initial displacement, inertia takes over. But, the friction with the rail or the road retards the velocity. The force, which is moving in the same direction, again comes in contact with the body and again pushes it. This leads to a continuous change of velocity, the rate of which is called acceleration. But as can be seen, another force of friction is acting to generate acceleration, which has not been included in the equation. Thus, the mathematical form of Newton’s second law is wrong.
To understand the true nature of acceleration, we have to understand wave motion. According to the latest findings of LHC, the early universe was a ‘perfect fluid’, not an ‘explosion of gases’ that is the basis of all current theories. We posit that this fluid formed the primary field. Particles are subsequent generations of this field through confinement. A wave is a disturbance in a fluid medium where the particles transfer the momentum only. This implies that the particles in a field are displaced temporarily and due to inertia of restoration (elasticity), regain their position and are subjected to the same force. Since fluid mediums do not have a strong confinement like solids, each particle pushes the others over a field leading to a chain reaction, which goes on repeating. The pushed particle, which was at rest, pushes the first particle back canceling half of its impact and transferring the other half to the next particle. We call this motion as “kampa”. Since this transfer of energy involves over a field covering the amplitude of the wave and is further modified by the density (which is related to mass per unit volume) of the medium, the equation for momentum is ½ mv^2 at every point (most text books give a wrong explanation of this phenomenon).
Now, imagine a situation where the impressed force overcomes the inertia of restoration. The particle is displaced fully and in turn it displaces the next particle. There will be a reaction as above, but the rate of change of velocity will be reduced gradually. The particle will come to rest after sometime. Since the original particle will be going back to the source after sometime, the end particle will be subjected to a similar force in a chain repeatedly. We call this phenomenon “chiti”. This last particle in a “chiti” then acts as a center of mass for other interactions. This finally leads to the formation of a structure because, as we have explained earlier, all structures have a center of mass surrounded by the extra-nuclear field and confined by orbits.
A paper published in October, 2005 issue of Notices of American Mathematical Society shows that the same mathematics governs the theory of dynamical systems used to plan trajectories of space crafts and the theory of transition states of chemical reaction. The same laws of physics hold both for quantum world and the macro world. In our essay we had shown how the Uncertainty relation has been misinterpreted. It is not a law of Nature. It is a result of natural laws relating to observation that reveal a kind of granularity at certain levels of existence that is related to causality. The left hand side of equations represents free-will, as we are free to choose the parameters. The right hand side represents determinism as the outcome is based on the input in predictable ways. The equality sign prescribes the special conditions to be observed. There is no need to complicate the issue.
In your example, if you decrease delta t while leaving delta x unchanged, what it means is that the object is stationary in the frame of reference as time passes. As delta t gets smaller and smaller, it does not imply that we are measuring the difference between x1 and x2 more and more rapidly, because the concept of x1 and x2 has simply vanished. Thus, the rest of your examples are a wrong description, hence not valid.
When you say: “epistemic states are ultimately discrete on some level: our knowledge of the universe is discontinuous”, what it really means is that we have incomplete information. Knowledge is related to unification of the various sensory impulses to create a stable memory. None of the fundamental forces of Nature in isolation is useful for creation. Only collectively they can create stable systems. Similarly, knowledge, which unifies the different perceptions, is stable and continuous. But depending upon individual perceptions, it may have limited information.
Both space and time are related to the order of arrangement in the field, i.e., sequence of objects and events contained in them like the design on a fabric. Both space and time co-exist like the fabric and its back ground color. The perception of this sequence is interrupted by an interval however infinitesimal. The interval between objects is called space and that between events is called time. We take a fairly intelligible and repetitive interval and use it as the unit, where necessary by subdividing it. We compare the interval with this unit interval and call the result measurement of space and time respectively.
Since space and time have no physical existence like particles and fields, we use alternative symbolism of objects and events to describe them. Thus, what Euclid called space is not the interval between objects, but the basic frame of reference on which the objects are placed as markers. To this extent he is right. Dedekind and others did not know this concept. Hence they wrongly held that “it is possible to construct discontinuous spaces in which Euclidean geometry holds”. Geometry is related to measurement of space and no measurement except distance (line) is possible in discontinuous spaces like in the interval between a point on Earth and another point on the Sun or Moon. However, this fallacy was not apparent to the others who built theories upon such invalid foundation. Since space is the interval between objects, the space is continuous throughout the Universe.
What the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) have demonstrated is that the field encompassing everything in the Universe is the same.
Causality and determinism are two sides of the same coin. The left hand side of equations represents free-will, as we are free to choose the parameters. The right hand side represents determinism as the outcome is based on the input in predictable ways. The equality sign prescribes the special conditions to be observed. There is no need to complicate the issue. The direct relationship between causality on a given space-time and the continuity of the Lorentzian distance on that space-time is only apparent to the observer and not real to the systems being observed. Information or knowledge is related to observation by the observer. It may or may not represent the true state of the system being observed.
Special Relativity is not only conceptually, but also mathematically wrong. This is what Einstein describes in his 30-06-1905 paper "On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies":
Einstein: We assume that this definition of synchronism is free from contradictions, and possible for any number of points; and that the following relations are universally valid:
1. If the clock at B synchronizes with the clock at A, the clock at A synchronizes with the clock at B.
2. If the clock at A synchronizes with the clock at B and also with the clock at C, the clocks at B and C also synchronize with each other.
Our comments: Here clock at A is the privileged frame of reference. Yet, he tells the opposite by denying any privileged frame of reference. Further, his description of the length measurement is faulty. Here we quote from his paper and offer our views.
Einstein: Let there be given a stationary rigid rod; and let its length be l as measured by a measuring-rod which is also stationary. We now imagine the axis of the rod lying along the axis of x of the stationary system of co-ordinates, and that a uniform motion of parallel translation with velocity v along the axis of x in the direction of increasing x is then imparted to the rod. We now inquire as to the length of the moving rod, and imagine its length to be ascertained by the following two operations:-
(a) The observer moves together with the given measuring-rod and the rod to be measured, and measures the length of the rod directly by superposing the measuring-rod, in just the same way as if all three were at rest.
(b) By means of stationary clocks set up in the stationary system and synchronizing in accordance with §1, the observer ascertains at what points of the stationary system the two ends of the rod to be measured are located at a definite time. The distance between these two points, measured by the measuring-rod already employed, which in this case is at rest, is also a length which may be designated “the length of the rod”.
In accordance with the principle of relativity the length to be discovered by the operation (a) - we will call it the length of the rod in the moving system - must be equal to the length l of the stationary rod.
The length to be discovered by the operation (b) we will call “the length of the (moving) rod in the stationary system”. This we shall determine on the basis of our two principles, and we shall find that it differs from l.
Our comments: The method described at (b) is impossible to measure by the principles described by Einstein himself. Elsewhere he has described two frames: one fixed and one moving along it. First the length of the moving rod is measured in the stationary system against the backdrop of the fixed frame and then the length is measured at a different epoch in a similar way in units of velocity of light. We can do this only in two ways, out of which one is the same as (a). Alternatively, we take a photograph of the rod against the backdrop of the fixed frame and then measure its length in units of velocity of light or any other unit. But the picture will not give a correct reading due to two reasons:
• If the length of the rod is small or velocity is small, then length contraction will not be perceptible according to the formula given by Einstein.
• If the length of the rod is big or velocity is comparable to that of light, then light from different points of the rod will take different times to reach the camera and the picture we get will be distorted due to the Doppler shift of different points of the rod. Thus, there is only one way of measuring the length of the rod as in (a).
Here we are reminded of an anecdote related to Sir Arthur Eddington. Once he directed two of his students to measure the wave-length of light precisely. Both students returned with different results – one resembling the accepted value and the other different. Upon enquiry, the student replied that he had also come up with the same result as the other, but since everything including the Earth and the scale on it is moving, he applied length contraction to the scale treating Betelgeuse as a reference point. This changed the result. Eddington told him to follow the operation as at (a) above and recalculate the wave-length of light again without any reference to Betelgeuse. After sometime, both the students returned to tell that the wave-length of light is infinite. To a surprised Eddington they explained that since the scale is moving with light, its length would shrink to zero. Hence it will require an infinite number of scales to measure the wave-length of light.
Some scientists try to overcome this difficulty by pointing out that length contraction occurs only in the direction of travel. If we hold the rod in a transverse direction to the direction of travel, then there will be no length contraction for the rod. But we fail to understand how the length can be measured by holding it in a transverse direction to the direction of travel. If the light path is also transverse to the direction of motion, then the terms c+v and c-v vanish from the equation making the entire theory redundant. If the observer moves together with the given measuring-rod and the rod to be measured, and measures the length of the rod directly by superposing the measuring-rod while moving with it, he will not find any difference what-so-ever. Thus, the views of Einstein are contrary to observation.
His “mathematics” using the equation for the sphere is all wrong. For example, he has used equations x2+y2+z2-c2t2 = 0 and ξ2 + η2 + ζ2 - c2 τ2 = 0 to describe two spheres that the observers see of the evolution of the same light pulse. Apart from the fact that the above equation of the sphere is mathematically wrong (it describes a sphere with the center at origin, whose z-axis is zero, i.e., not a sphere, but a circle), it also shows how the same treats time differently. Since general equation of sphere is supposed to be x2+y2+z2+Dx+Ey+Fz+G = 0, both the equations can at best describe two spheres with origin at (0,0,0) and the points (x,y,z) and (ξ, η, ζ ) on the circumference of the respective spheres. Since the second person is moving away from the origin, the second equation is not applicable in his case. Assuming he sees the same sphere, he should know its origin (because he has already seen it, otherwise he will not know that it is the same light pulse. In the later case there is no way to correlate both pulses) and its present location. In other words, he will measure the same radius as the other person, implying: c2t2 = c2 τ2 or t = τ.
Again, if x2+y2+z2-c2t2 = x’2+y’2+z’2-c2 τ 2, t ≠ τ.
This creates a contradiction, which invalidates his mathematics.
Through all this, you have not defined what reality is. We suggest you read our essay.
Regards,
basudeba.
view post as summary
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 20, 2011 @ 01:21 GMT
I think you have misinterpreted what I meant by an epistemic state. In fact, the examples I gave were taken from one of Rob's' papers. The probabilistic state is a state of knowledge in that it gives us a certain *degree* or *level* of knowledge rather than providing complete knowledge and, as such, may or may not describe reality (i.e. may or may not correspond to an ontic state).
report post as inappropriate
basudeba replied on Mar. 22, 2011 @ 23:25 GMT
Dear Sir,
We are an amateur and it is natural for us to misunderstand. But you have not replied to the points raised by us. The only point you covered in your reply is also an admission that it is a borrowed idea and a restatement of what you had told earlier (and which we had refuted with proof).
Even if you have taken something from another Scientists papers, you should have understood it fully before including it in your essay without citation (which gave the impression that it was your original work.) On the face of it, "a state of knowledge in that it gives us a certain *degree* or *level* of knowledge rather than providing complete knowledge" implies partial knowledge. If we are to divide knowledge as "complete knowledge" and "partial knowledge", that must be the darkest day for science, because "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".
The word Science was derived from the root "scio", which means knowledge. Thus, your interpretation is not science. There is no place for half knowledge in science. Kindly clarify whether you are writting science or fiction?
Regards,
basudeba.
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 25, 2011 @ 02:52 GMT
Dear basudeba,
I cited Rob's paper and mentioned his name in relation to the exact point you are accusing me of plagiarizing. Please see PAGE ONE (reference number 2). The fact that you somehow missed this blatantly obvious point makes me wonder if you actually read the paper or merely skimmed it. Before accusing someone of dishonesty or ethically questionable behavior, please double-check your facts.
As for your other points, I'm not entirely sure I really understand what you are trying to address.
ITD
report post as inappropriate
Alan Lowey wrote on Mar. 15, 2011 @ 17:23 GMT
Hi Ian,
I've replied to your response earlier about Newton's law and Coulomb's law being incompatible for a unification of the forces. Hope you can respond in time.
Best wishes,
Alan
report post as inappropriate
Alan Lowey replied on Mar. 15, 2011 @ 17:33 GMT
I've re-iterated the reply here because I believe it to be so philosophically profound (rightly or wrongly):
"Okay, that's a good point about the similarity with electrostatics, which I've just thought about a bit more. The difference is that Coulombs law assumes "charged" particles, so that they come in two opposite types. Electric charge is a physical property of matter which causes it to experience a force when near other electrically charged matter. The way these two types interact hasn't been modelled by mechnical means, just like gravity itself. Why do like charges attract and opposites repell? The mechanism is an enigma.
If a 'fabric' of spacetime is visualised as the 'mechanism' of gravity, then this fabric is uniform and symmetrical. It therefore can't be the cause of the elctrostatic forces. His equation therefore negates gravity as being behind the eletrostatic force. It therefore renders the unification of all the forces an impossiblity. Therefore his equation must be wrong imo."
report post as inappropriate
Alan Lowey replied on Mar. 15, 2011 @ 17:45 GMT
lol, edit: I should have said opposites attract and like charges repell. (school was a long time ago)
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 20, 2011 @ 01:17 GMT
Right, I see what you're saying here. I do think there are many unanswered issues here. I'll have to think a bit more about this.
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Mar. 20, 2011 @ 01:18 GMT
And I meant 'unanswered issues' with gravity and electrostatics, not necessarily your idea (which I need to give more thought).
report post as inappropriate
Alan Lowey replied on Mar. 20, 2011 @ 13:06 GMT
I take that as a compliment still Ian. It does take some thinking about yes, especially if you've been used to something else for a long perhaps. The magnetic force is a scale larger and is again due to the pattern of graviton flux emission and absorption of the neucleons in fluid-to-solid crytsal structures. It's the scale of molecular crystal lattice solids like iron which provide the magnetic pattern of graviton emission. Ultimately, it's the rotation and density of matter in a small confined space, held together by gravity which gives the minerals and rocks we know today and are familiar with. Matter can't be understood without a working knowledge of it's history and formation.
Kind regards,
Alan
report post as inappropriate
hide replies
basudeba wrote on Mar. 16, 2011 @ 05:07 GMT
Dear Sir,
We were following your views on gravity and Coulomb's law. Here is our comment on that.
Before we discuss whether the force we were referring to was gravity, we will like to discuss something about force itself. A force is experienced only in a field (we call it rayi). Thus, it is a conjugate of the field. If something is placed in a field, it experiences something else....
view entire post
Dear Sir,
We were following your views on gravity and Coulomb's law. Here is our comment on that.
Before we discuss whether the force we were referring to was gravity, we will like to discuss something about force itself. A force is experienced only in a field (we call it rayi). Thus, it is a conjugate of the field. If something is placed in a field, it experiences something else. This something else is a kind of force. Depending upon the density variations of the field, we experience the force differently. Hence we call it by different names. While the field is one, the forces are many. Since they are conjugates, we can also say that different forces create different variations in the field.
The basic nature of the field is equilibrium. The basic nature of forces is displacement. This gives rise to two different types of inertia: inertia of motion due to forces and inertia of restoration (elasticity) due to the field. This leads to both these inertia acting against a point of equilibrium. In such a scenario, the combined effect leads to confinement around the point of equilibrium. The confined structure is called particle. Thus, all particles have a central point of mass or nucleus, an extra nuclear field surrounding it and fixed orbitals confining it. This is the common feature of all particles be they quarks or the Cosmos. The confinement may also cover the field without the central point. This is caused due to non-linear interaction of the forces. We will describe the mechanism separately. In such a case the field behaves like a fluid. The latest finding of LHC is that the Universe was created from such a super-fluid and not gases. The confined field also interacts with the Universal field due to difference in density. This in turn modifies the nature of interactions at different points in the medium (Universal field).
A force can act only between two particles as only a particle can influence the field, which in turn can be experienced by another particle. If the external force of the field is more than the confining force of the two particles, then the two particles break up and join to form a new particle. We call this “sambhuti”. In the opposite case, the two particles experience the force without being internally affected. The force acts between the centers’ of mass of each treating each as a point particle. We call it “bibhuti”. This second category of relationship, which we call “udyaama”, is known as gravity. Since it stabilizes the two bodies at the maximum permissible distance between them depending upon their respective masses, we call it “urugaaya pratisthaa”. For reasons to be discussed separately, this is possible only if gravity is treated as a composite force.
The first category of forces, which are interactions between two bodies, acts differently based on proximity-proximity, proximity-distance, distance – proximity and distance – distance variables. We call these relationships “antaryaama”, “vahiryaama”, “upayaama” and “yaatayaama” respectively. This interaction affects the field also inducing various local disturbances. These disturbances are known as “nitya gati”, “yagnya gati”, “samprasaada gati” and “saamparaaya gati” respectively. Any particle entering the field at those points feels these disturbances, which are known as the strong nuclear interaction, weak nuclear interaction, electromagnetic interaction and radioactive disintegration respectively. Thus, you can see that gravity belongs to a completely different group of forces and cannot be integrated with other fundamental forces of Nature in the normal process. Yet, it has a different function by which other forces can be derived from it. We will discuss that separately.
According to our theory, gravity is a composite force of seven forces that are generated based on their charge. Thus, they are related to charge interactions. But we do not accept Coulomb's law. We have a different theory for it. We derive it from fundamental principles.
According to our theory, all particles are locally confined fields. This confinement takes a three fold structure for the particle - center of mass or nucleus, extra-nuclear field and the confining orbitals. If we take into account the external field with which the particle interacts, it becomes a four-fold (3+1) structure. The particle interacts with the field in two ways. If the internal energy distribution cancels each other with a little inward pull, then it behaves as a stable particle. Thus, we have derived theoretically the charge of proton in electron units not +1, but +10/11. Similarly, the charge of neutron is not 0, but -1/11. This makes the atom slightly negatively charged. This excess negative charge is not experienced out side as it is directed towards nucleus. But it is released during fusion and fission.
The confinement described above takes place where the external field dominates to confine the particle. Here the particle becomes negatively charged. In the opposite case, the particle becomes positively charged. The particles are classified as positively charged or negatively charged according to whether the external field dominates over confinement or the confined force dominates over the local field. Since equilibrium is inherent in Nature, in either case, the particles search for their complements to become full. The less negative part of the proton (since it is +10/11, it has -1/11 negative charge) seeks to couple with the electron to become -1/11. This makes hydrogen atom highly reactionary.
The combined charge of proton and electron (-1/11) seeks the neutron since it has an equal charge. Thus, the opposites do not attract and same charge does not repel. It is not the opposite either. The charge interaction can be of four types:
positive + positive = explosive.
Positive + negative (total interaction) = internally creative (increased atomic number)
Positive + negative (partial interaction) = externally creative (becomes an ion)
Negative + negative = no reaction.
Regards,
basudeba.
view post as summary
report post as inappropriate
basudeba wrote on Mar. 20, 2011 @ 01:54 GMT
Dear Sir,
Further to our comments above, we will like to add the following.
In Coulomb’s law, F = k Q1 x Q2 /d^2. In a charge neutral object, either Q1 or Q2 will be zero reducing the whole equation to zero. This implies that no interaction is possible between a charged object and a charge neutral object. But this is contrary to experience. Hence the format of Coulomb’s law is wrong.
When we said “positive + positive = explosive”, what we meant was the fusion reaction tat leads to unleashing of huge amounts of energy. Its opposite is also true, but since it is reduction, there is less energy release.
Positive + negative (total interaction) = internally creative (increased atomic number.) This means that if one proton and one electron is added to the atom, the atomic number goes up.
Positive + negative (partial interaction) = externally creative (becomes an ion.) This means that if one proton or one electron is added to the atom, the atom becomes ionic.
Negative + negative = no reaction. What actually it means that though there will be no reaction between the two negatively charged particles; they will appear to repel each other as their nature is confinement. Like two pots that confine water cannot occupy the same place and if one is placed near another with some areas overlapping, then both repel each other. This is shown in the “Wheeler’s Aharonov–Bohm experiment”.
Regards,
basudeba
report post as inappropriate
Alan Lowey wrote on Mar. 26, 2011 @ 10:36 GMT
Hello Ian,
I have another bugging question for you. I'm 100% convinced that this proposed 'inclination hypothesis' will be 100x more enlightening than the Archimedes screw model for the graviton/anti-graviton. It's a real eye-opener this one.
The precession of Mercury can be explained in the same way that the 100,000 year glacial cycle can be explained by the inclination hypothesis that has reduced tide raising forces with increased inclination. The reduced tides lowers the distribution of warm equatorial waters to the poles, which induces glaciation in the high latitudes. The combination of these two papers
Spectrum of 100-kyr glacial cycle: Orbital inclination, not eccentricity and
The 1,800-year oceanic tidal cycle: A possible cause of rapid climate change can be used to reconcile the 1,800 year cycle to the 1,470 year cycle seen in physical data
Timing of Abrupt Climate Change: A Precise Clock.
I've scanned a quick doodle from last night which shows how the planet Mercury, due to it's high eccentricity, has very different distances above and below the orbital plane when nearing the planet and when furthest away. This means that the tide raising forces will be very different from one half of it's inclination orbit compared to the other half, despite it only having an inclination angle of around 6 degrees. This difference in gravitational forces from the calculated Newtonian forces is the reason for the discrepancy of it's orbital precession. I need to do the calcs, I know.
This proposed increase in gravitational attraction on the rotational plane of a celestial body has a surprising number of possible examples. This article on the
Pan and Atlas moons of Saturn mentions the problem of their formation from ring debris alone, it simply wouldn't happen under the gravity laws. They say that a gravitational 'seed' would be needed which is exactly the same conclusion that the Harvard professors came to when analysing their 360 mile wide innermost core of the Earth
Earth's New Center May Be The Seed Of Our Planet's Formation.
Kind regards,
Alan
attachments:
Doodle.jpg
report post as inappropriate
Author Yuri Danoyan+ wrote on Mar. 30, 2011 @ 12:14 GMT
Gentlemens
I wonder why you did not notice or do not want to notice the radical view that an independent investigator.Remember this name: name,Friedwardt Winterberg
http://bourabai.narod.ru/winter/relativ.htm
http://
bourabai.narod.ru/winter/clouds.htm
Yuri Danoyan
report post as inappropriate
Alan Lowey wrote on Mar. 30, 2011 @ 16:53 GMT
Alan Lowey wrote on Mar. 31, 2011 @ 10:28 GMT
I've taken the liberty of scanning
Professor Taylor's new book where he talks about the current concensus opinion on the cause of the 100,000 year ice age cycle. It's a brillint summary of the situation as it stands. See attached and also attached to the next post.
Alan
attachments:
2_Dance_Of_Air__Sea1.jpg,
2_Dance_Of_Air__Sea2.jpg
report post as inappropriate
Alan Lowey wrote on Mar. 31, 2011 @ 10:29 GMT
Author Yuri Danoyan+ wrote on Apr. 24, 2011 @ 19:50 GMT
It seems to me very interesting
http://www.ma.hw.ac.uk/~oliver/Nature_article.pdf
Yuri
report post as inappropriate
Georgina Parry wrote on Jun. 6, 2011 @ 10:58 GMT
Dear Ian,
Congratulations on being a prize winner. Well done. You answered the question in an interesting, enjoyable and relevant way and gave consideration to some issues that I also think are very important. Thank you too for taking the time to participate on your essay discussion thread. I did appreciate your reply.
report post as inappropriate
Tony Way wrote on Jun. 14, 2011 @ 01:06 GMT
You argue, persuasively to my mind, that our epistemic knowledge of reality is necessarily discrete because of the impossibility of measuring reality instantaneously (or something like that). But you mention, almost in passing, that our epistemic knowledge of reality requires the exchange of information by photons. Could I not also argue that the requirement to use photons to acquire knowledge of reality necessarily makes epistemic knowledge discrete? Imagining myself as an elemental entity, my knowledge of any other entity is acquired only by one photon interacting with me at one instant of time and thereby transmitting to me information about the state of one other entity at one instant of past time with which it has had a single interaction. Thus, "I" acquire information discretely about the discrete state of one "other". If this is a fair description of the process of acquiring epistemic knowledge, then with only one simple assumption, the Heisenberg Uncertainty may become understandable.
report post as inappropriate
Author Ian Durham replied on Sep. 3, 2011 @ 20:09 GMT
That's interesting. Hmmm. Well, we just spent 8 days discussing time at the FQXi conference, though, so we'd have to be more clear about what we mean by "instants of time" (as well as what we mean by an interaction, which my essay from last year touched on).
report post as inappropriate
Sridattadev wrote on Aug. 10, 2011 @ 15:45 GMT
Dear Dr. Ian,
The simple mathematical truth
zer0= i = infinity can be deduced as follows as well.
If 0 x 0 = 0 is true, then 0 / 0 = 0 is also true
If 0 x 1 = 0 is true, then 0 / 0 = 1 is also true
If 0 x 2 = 0 is true, then 0 / 0 = 2 is also true
If 0 x i = 0 is true, then 0 / 0 = i is also true
If 0 x ~ = 0 is true, then 0 / 0 = ~ is also true
It seems that mathematics, the universal language, is also pointing to the absolute truth that 0 = 1 = 2 = i = ~, where "i" can be any number from zero to infinity. We have been looking at only first half of the if true statements in the relative world. As we can see it is not complete with out the then true statements whic are equally true. As all numbers are equal mathematically, so is all creation equal "absolutely".
This proves that 0 = i = ~ or in words "absolutely" nothing = "relatively" everything or everything is absolutely equal. Singularity is not only relative infinity but also absolute equality. There is only one singularity or infinity in the relativistic universe and there is only singularity or equality in the absolute universe and we are all in it.
Love,
Sridattadev.
report post as inappropriate
Add a New Post