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Jason Wolfe: "Hi Ray, As an electronics technician, I can tell you that "bad..." in Neutrino Black Magic
Ray Munroe: "This 'result' may be about to disappear: Error undoes FTL Neutrino Results..." in Neutrino Black Magic
James Putnam: "Paul, You wrote to Tom: "A much more effective experiment, rather than..." in The Whole and Nothing But
James Putnam: "Paul, Did you read that message or not? I said I hoped I could present it..." in It's About Time
Paul Reed: "Eckard As stated some weeks back, the A & B example was nonsense. Events..." in Proving You Are Where You...
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click titles to read articles
Video Article: The Patchwork Multiverse
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The Cosmic Family Tree
Mapping the ancestral history of spacetime in an effort to unite quantum mechanics and general relativity.
Behind the Shadows
Imagining Schrödinger’s cat peering out from behind a black hole could lead to a theory of quantum gravity.
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February 22, 2012
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TOPIC: Entropy and complexity: themes from the FQXi conference Setting Time Aright [refresh]
TOPIC: Entropy and complexity: themes from the FQXi conference Setting Time Aright [refresh]
The aim of the recent FQXi conference on the nature of time was to explore time from a multidisciplinary, multifaceted viewpoint. As such the conference brought together psychologists, neuroscientists, complexity theorists, evolutionary biologists, journalists and science writers, as well as the usual cadre of physicists, philosophers, and the odd mathematician or two. Personally I thought it was a rousing success. Of course one of the drawbacks of bringing together such a broad group of researchers is that the way each communicates within their particular discipline. Each field has its own specialized jargon and notation, sometimes conflicting with the jargon and notation of other fields. One of the most glaring examples of this is the notation used by mathematicians and physicists when describing the behavior of operators and their matrix representations. Mathematicians (and sometimes mathematical physicists) use an asterisk to denote the adjoint (complex conjugate transpose) of an operator. Physicists, on the other hand, use a dagger. This gets confusing because the physicists use the asterisk to denote just the plain old complex conjugate (no transpose!). It gets even more confusing when you realize that the mathematicians use an overbar for the complex conjugate while the physicists use the overbar to indicate a vector which can be acted on by an operator! Is your head spinning yet?
At any rate, while it is safe to say we all were able to communicate reasonably well across disciplinary barriers at the conference, there were occasional points of confusion. With that said, a deep commonality emerged from across the spectrum of talks and discussions. First, it seemed quite clear that complexity, in some form or another, was at the heart of nearly every discussion. In other words, regardless of whether we are talking about multiple universes or electric fish, time has something to do with complexity. Second, it also seemed fairly clear that entropy is ultimately a measure of complexity. Thus the second law of thermodynamics seems to tell us that, roughly, complexity (and thus entropy) tend to increase in the long run and this is where the "arrow of time" seems to come from. The disagreements arose largely from our rather fluid understanding of complexity, entropy, and the second law.
So just what is entropy? Operationally it appears to be some type of measurable quantity (we'll get to exactly what that means in a moment) that tends to increase, on average, for the universe as a whole. In fact, the second law of thermodynamics specifically says that the entropy of any isolated system never decreases (on average) over time. Most people would assume that the universe is the ultimate isolated system - unless, of course, one believes in the multiverse. As such it seems that entropy is a thermodynamic quantity - and here's where the trouble starts.
From the standpoint of pure thermodynamics, i.e. macroscopic arguments, entropy can be related to internal energy, pressure, volume, temperature, chemical potential, and a host of other thermodynamic quantities via what are known as thermodynamic identities. Thus we often feel justified in associating entropy with energy (note that there are other reasons, but this is just one example). This association is the source of one problem that was discussed extensively at the conference: why is the entropy of the early universe low? More importantly, how is it that the state of the early universe contains high-energy particles but has low entropy and then evolves to a state in which the particles are low-energy but have a high entropy?
There are several answers to these questions and I won't endeavor to present them all. But I will present two. The first potential answer is that there isn't actually a problem here at all: all that energy in the early universe is (slowly) being used to increase its entropy. In this case entropy doesn't increase of its own accord (spontaneously) - energy must be injected into the system in order for the entropy to increase. The second potential answer is that maybe, just maybe, entropy has nothing to do with energy. Sure, they relate in some equations such as the thermodynamic identities, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are universally interdependent.
To expand on this it is necessary to actually give a definition to entropy. Now entropy is a concept that turns out to be fairly universal. It pops up in many different guises and forms including information theory. In fact one interpretation of entropy is that it is information.
In statistical mechanics (the microscopic way of looking at thermal systems) and a few other fields, entropy is often interpreted as a logarithmic scaling of the number of possible configurations that a system could have. So, for example, one could define the "entropy" for a pair of dice as essentially counting how many ways one can get a certain number. Thus the "entropy" of a roll of seven would be higher than the "entropy" of a roll of two since there's only one way to get a two on a pair of dice but six ways to get a seven.
What does that have to do with the universe? Well, think of it this way. The very early universe (but post-inflation, so roughly 10-32 seconds after the Big Bang) consisted of a quark-gluon plasma. There are only a few possible processes at this point and so there’s not much you can do with all those quarks and gluons. I mean, you might think there’s a completely clean slate and anything is possible, right? But there really isn’t. For example, until the so-called “quark epoch” between 10-12 and 10-6 seconds after the Big Bang, particles don’t have any mass. By acquiring mass, the universe adds a little bit of variety to the mix. Think of it like this: the quark-gluon plasma prior to the action of the Higgs mechanism would be like having a box full of square, two-by-two Legos of only two colors. You can certainly build a lot with that, but good luck making a model of Princess Leia in Jabba the Hutt’s lair. Adding mass is like adding, say, another color or shape to the Legos in your box – you can now do a little more with them. The variety is a bit greater.
So while it is true that, generally speaking, the universe contains the same amount of mass-energy now as it did then, it currently comes in a wider range of fundamental building blocks than it did in the beginning. So it makes sense that the current entropy of the universe is greater than it was. What about the entropy of the universe trillions of years from now? Currently the most accepted model of the universe’s evolution has it expanding forever (thanks to the acceleration of its expansion) which should eventually produce a universe of nothing but individual fundamental particles of low-energy that aren’t bound to anything and tend to be spatially isolated from one another. How could that state have a higher entropy than the current one?
Think about the Legos again. The current state of the universe is a bit like having a box full of a wide variety of Legos but with most of them already put together to form buildings, people, etc. In other words, you can do more with a box full of unused Legos than you can with a bunch of Legos that are already being used in some model: when you buy a new set of Legos, the entropy of the set is at its highest before you actually build the model because at that point those Legos could be used to build anything!
So if we view entropy in this manner, it is not in the least bit surprising that the early universe has a low entropy (despite consisting of high energy particles) while the much later universe will have a considerably higher entropy (despite consisting of low-energy particles). We could then view the Second Law of Thermodynamics as representative of the universe’s desire (or, perhaps, the desire of the stuff in the universe) to be in the state that offers the greatest possible number of configurations, i.e. the state that maximizes the variety of possibilities. One could alternately say that the universe tends towards a state of increasing complexity.
If one looks closely at many of the talks from the conference (available on YouTube) one will find that most have some relation to complexity or statistical arguments (though sometimes not in an obvious way). In fact just about every talk at the conference touched on one or more of the following topics: quantum mechanics, statistical mechanics, probability & statistics, and complex systems. So it’s fairly safe to say that if you want to understand what time is (and it’s clear that we still don’t), those are the topics you would do well to study.
With that said, I will close with some thoughts shared in casual conversation by Julian Barbour. As Julian says, if you want to properly define time you need to first answer the question: what is a clock? But in order to answer that question, you need answer this one: just what is duration anyway? Can entropy help answer that? It’s an open but intriguing question. It means a lot of us will be busy thinking about this stuff for awhile.
this post has been edited by the author since its original submission
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At any rate, while it is safe to say we all were able to communicate reasonably well across disciplinary barriers at the conference, there were occasional points of confusion. With that said, a deep commonality emerged from across the spectrum of talks and discussions. First, it seemed quite clear that complexity, in some form or another, was at the heart of nearly every discussion. In other words, regardless of whether we are talking about multiple universes or electric fish, time has something to do with complexity. Second, it also seemed fairly clear that entropy is ultimately a measure of complexity. Thus the second law of thermodynamics seems to tell us that, roughly, complexity (and thus entropy) tend to increase in the long run and this is where the "arrow of time" seems to come from. The disagreements arose largely from our rather fluid understanding of complexity, entropy, and the second law.
So just what is entropy? Operationally it appears to be some type of measurable quantity (we'll get to exactly what that means in a moment) that tends to increase, on average, for the universe as a whole. In fact, the second law of thermodynamics specifically says that the entropy of any isolated system never decreases (on average) over time. Most people would assume that the universe is the ultimate isolated system - unless, of course, one believes in the multiverse. As such it seems that entropy is a thermodynamic quantity - and here's where the trouble starts.
From the standpoint of pure thermodynamics, i.e. macroscopic arguments, entropy can be related to internal energy, pressure, volume, temperature, chemical potential, and a host of other thermodynamic quantities via what are known as thermodynamic identities. Thus we often feel justified in associating entropy with energy (note that there are other reasons, but this is just one example). This association is the source of one problem that was discussed extensively at the conference: why is the entropy of the early universe low? More importantly, how is it that the state of the early universe contains high-energy particles but has low entropy and then evolves to a state in which the particles are low-energy but have a high entropy?
There are several answers to these questions and I won't endeavor to present them all. But I will present two. The first potential answer is that there isn't actually a problem here at all: all that energy in the early universe is (slowly) being used to increase its entropy. In this case entropy doesn't increase of its own accord (spontaneously) - energy must be injected into the system in order for the entropy to increase. The second potential answer is that maybe, just maybe, entropy has nothing to do with energy. Sure, they relate in some equations such as the thermodynamic identities, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are universally interdependent.
To expand on this it is necessary to actually give a definition to entropy. Now entropy is a concept that turns out to be fairly universal. It pops up in many different guises and forms including information theory. In fact one interpretation of entropy is that it is information.
 |
What does that have to do with the universe? Well, think of it this way. The very early universe (but post-inflation, so roughly 10-32 seconds after the Big Bang) consisted of a quark-gluon plasma. There are only a few possible processes at this point and so there’s not much you can do with all those quarks and gluons. I mean, you might think there’s a completely clean slate and anything is possible, right? But there really isn’t. For example, until the so-called “quark epoch” between 10-12 and 10-6 seconds after the Big Bang, particles don’t have any mass. By acquiring mass, the universe adds a little bit of variety to the mix. Think of it like this: the quark-gluon plasma prior to the action of the Higgs mechanism would be like having a box full of square, two-by-two Legos of only two colors. You can certainly build a lot with that, but good luck making a model of Princess Leia in Jabba the Hutt’s lair. Adding mass is like adding, say, another color or shape to the Legos in your box – you can now do a little more with them. The variety is a bit greater.
So while it is true that, generally speaking, the universe contains the same amount of mass-energy now as it did then, it currently comes in a wider range of fundamental building blocks than it did in the beginning. So it makes sense that the current entropy of the universe is greater than it was. What about the entropy of the universe trillions of years from now? Currently the most accepted model of the universe’s evolution has it expanding forever (thanks to the acceleration of its expansion) which should eventually produce a universe of nothing but individual fundamental particles of low-energy that aren’t bound to anything and tend to be spatially isolated from one another. How could that state have a higher entropy than the current one?
Think about the Legos again. The current state of the universe is a bit like having a box full of a wide variety of Legos but with most of them already put together to form buildings, people, etc. In other words, you can do more with a box full of unused Legos than you can with a bunch of Legos that are already being used in some model: when you buy a new set of Legos, the entropy of the set is at its highest before you actually build the model because at that point those Legos could be used to build anything!
So if we view entropy in this manner, it is not in the least bit surprising that the early universe has a low entropy (despite consisting of high energy particles) while the much later universe will have a considerably higher entropy (despite consisting of low-energy particles). We could then view the Second Law of Thermodynamics as representative of the universe’s desire (or, perhaps, the desire of the stuff in the universe) to be in the state that offers the greatest possible number of configurations, i.e. the state that maximizes the variety of possibilities. One could alternately say that the universe tends towards a state of increasing complexity.
If one looks closely at many of the talks from the conference (available on YouTube) one will find that most have some relation to complexity or statistical arguments (though sometimes not in an obvious way). In fact just about every talk at the conference touched on one or more of the following topics: quantum mechanics, statistical mechanics, probability & statistics, and complex systems. So it’s fairly safe to say that if you want to understand what time is (and it’s clear that we still don’t), those are the topics you would do well to study.
With that said, I will close with some thoughts shared in casual conversation by Julian Barbour. As Julian says, if you want to properly define time you need to first answer the question: what is a clock? But in order to answer that question, you need answer this one: just what is duration anyway? Can entropy help answer that? It’s an open but intriguing question. It means a lot of us will be busy thinking about this stuff for awhile.
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Quoting from near the end of the article:
"...As Julian says, But in order to answer that question, you need answer this one: just what is duration anyway? Can entropy help answer that? "
Taking this part: "...if you want to properly define time you need to first answer the question: what is a clock?..."
Why? This looks inescapably like defining the problem so that it can only move forward in your chosen direction.
With regard to entropy, it depends upon which kind of entropy one chooses. I choose the orginal thermodynamic entropy as defined by Clausius. My answer then is: Yes thermodynamic entropy can help to answer the question." I say this because the value of thermodynamic entropy relates directly to a period of time and that period is insensitive to one's choice of clock. The chosen clock will give a measurement that does not pertain to the set value of thermodynamic entropy, but, rather pertains to the mechanical limitations of that and all clocks.
Now take Clausius' formulation of thermodynamic entropy, a specific time period is involved regardless of the properties of one's clock. It would be better to throw the clock away and use the value of thermodynamic entropy as both the fixed point and the length of period of time for measuring the passage of the fundamental property called time.
James
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"...As Julian says, But in order to answer that question, you need answer this one: just what is duration anyway? Can entropy help answer that? "
Taking this part: "...if you want to properly define time you need to first answer the question: what is a clock?..."
Why? This looks inescapably like defining the problem so that it can only move forward in your chosen direction.
With regard to entropy, it depends upon which kind of entropy one chooses. I choose the orginal thermodynamic entropy as defined by Clausius. My answer then is: Yes thermodynamic entropy can help to answer the question." I say this because the value of thermodynamic entropy relates directly to a period of time and that period is insensitive to one's choice of clock. The chosen clock will give a measurement that does not pertain to the set value of thermodynamic entropy, but, rather pertains to the mechanical limitations of that and all clocks.
Now take Clausius' formulation of thermodynamic entropy, a specific time period is involved regardless of the properties of one's clock. It would be better to throw the clock away and use the value of thermodynamic entropy as both the fixed point and the length of period of time for measuring the passage of the fundamental property called time.
James
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Temperature=time. Level of activity=rate of change.
I think the entropy angle is a dead end though. Even if you buy the expanding universe model, enormous patches and all, that dark energy is going somewhere, possibly pressure causing the galaxies to spin faster and so dark matter and dark energy are the same thing.
Fact is, death cures legacy costs. The energy is conserved and reused. Structure contracts and energy expands. Gravity and light are opposites.
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I think the entropy angle is a dead end though. Even if you buy the expanding universe model, enormous patches and all, that dark energy is going somewhere, possibly pressure causing the galaxies to spin faster and so dark matter and dark energy are the same thing.
Fact is, death cures legacy costs. The energy is conserved and reused. Structure contracts and energy expands. Gravity and light are opposites.
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Ian,
Chopping up you blog a bit so that I may target thermodynamic entropy:
"...In other words, regardless of whether we are talking about multiple universes or electric fish, time has something to do with complexity. Second, it also seemed fairly clear that entropy is ultimately a measure of complexity. Thus the second law of thermodynamics seems to tell us that, roughly,...
view entire post
Chopping up you blog a bit so that I may target thermodynamic entropy:
"...In other words, regardless of whether we are talking about multiple universes or electric fish, time has something to do with complexity. Second, it also seemed fairly clear that entropy is ultimately a measure of complexity. Thus the second law of thermodynamics seems to tell us that, roughly,...
view entire post
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James,
You should read E.T. Jaynes' article "Where Do We Stand on Maximum Entropy?" which is part of his collected works.
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You should read E.T. Jaynes' article "Where Do We Stand on Maximum Entropy?" which is part of his collected works.
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Ian,
I went through all of it. Clausius was mentioned once in the context of assuming he would approve of the author's work. I did not find that the article began or included Clausius' definition of thermodynamic entropy. I won't push this point if you do not wish to pursue it. My point is:Clausius' definition has nothing to do with probability theory or quantum theory even in rudimentary forms. Beginning with Boltzmann's definition onward, they are not representations of thermodynamic entropy as defined by Clausius. Repeating the question which in my point of view has never been answered: What did Clausius discover when he defined thermodynamic entropy? Since I am not a physicist, I will leave your response to stand as the answer for this thread. If you feel that E. T. Jaynes article answers the question then I won't repeat it here.
James
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I went through all of it. Clausius was mentioned once in the context of assuming he would approve of the author's work. I did not find that the article began or included Clausius' definition of thermodynamic entropy. I won't push this point if you do not wish to pursue it. My point is:Clausius' definition has nothing to do with probability theory or quantum theory even in rudimentary forms. Beginning with Boltzmann's definition onward, they are not representations of thermodynamic entropy as defined by Clausius. Repeating the question which in my point of view has never been answered: What did Clausius discover when he defined thermodynamic entropy? Since I am not a physicist, I will leave your response to stand as the answer for this thread. If you feel that E. T. Jaynes article answers the question then I won't repeat it here.
James
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The law of entropy increase was a conclusion deduced by Clausius from two false premises. Clausius eventually abandoned it but the enchanted scientific world did not:
http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00000313/
Jos Uffink, "Bluff your Way in the Second Law of Thermodynamics", pp. 39-40: "On many occasions Clausius was criticised by his contemporaries. I do not know if, in his own time, he was criticised in particular for his famous formulation of the second law as the increase of the entropy of the universe. However, Kuhn (1978, pp.13-15, p. 260) has pointed out the remarkable fact that in the book (Clausius 1876) he eventually composed from his collected articles, every reference to the entropy of the universe and even to the idea that entropy never decreases in irreversible processes in adiabatically isolated systems is deleted!"
So the entropy always increases in much the same way that the refuse in the Augean stables always increases (no Hercules is able to clean that).
Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com
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http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00000313/
Jos Uffink, "Bluff your Way in the Second Law of Thermodynamics", pp. 39-40: "On many occasions Clausius was criticised by his contemporaries. I do not know if, in his own time, he was criticised in particular for his famous formulation of the second law as the increase of the entropy of the universe. However, Kuhn (1978, pp.13-15, p. 260) has pointed out the remarkable fact that in the book (Clausius 1876) he eventually composed from his collected articles, every reference to the entropy of the universe and even to the idea that entropy never decreases in irreversible processes in adiabatically isolated systems is deleted!"
So the entropy always increases in much the same way that the refuse in the Augean stables always increases (no Hercules is able to clean that).
Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com
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Let us assume that Kelvin's version of the second law of thermodynamics can be violated, that is, in some cases, heat can be converted into work cyclically and isothermally. Would there be respective violations of the "entropy always increases" version? Only if Clausius' deduction of the latter version is valid and based on true premises. If not, a scenario is conceivable in which violations of the second law do occur in nature but our entropic glasses prevent us from seeing them. In this scenario the "entropy always increases" version automatically becomes the red herring suggested by Ehrenfest-Afanassjewa and Uffink:
http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00000313/
Jos Uffink, "Bluff your Way in the Second Law of Thermodynamics", p. 94: "This summary leads to the question whether it is fruitful to see irreversibility or time-asymmetry as the essence of the second law. Is it not more straightforward, in view of the unargued statements of Kelvin, the bold claims of Clausius and the strained attempts of Planck, to give up this idea? I believe that Ehrenfest-Afanassjewa was right in her verdict that the discussion about the arrow of time as expressed in the second law of the thermodynamics is actually a RED HERRING."
Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com
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http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00000313/
Jos Uffink, "Bluff your Way in the Second Law of Thermodynamics", p. 94: "This summary leads to the question whether it is fruitful to see irreversibility or time-asymmetry as the essence of the second law. Is it not more straightforward, in view of the unargued statements of Kelvin, the bold claims of Clausius and the strained attempts of Planck, to give up this idea? I believe that Ehrenfest-Afanassjewa was right in her verdict that the discussion about the arrow of time as expressed in the second law of the thermodynamics is actually a RED HERRING."
Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com
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Take a suspended and stretched spring. It can lift a weight as it contracts, that is, we GAIN work. However, in order to restore the initial stretched state of the spring, we must SPEND work so there is no net gain. If both contraction and stretching are carried out in a reversible fashion, the net work gained at the end of the cycle is zero.
Consider again a suspended and stretched spring but this time it is "chemical", that is, we have one of the macroscopic contractile polymers described by Dan Urry in:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp972167t
J. Phys. Chem. B, 1997, 101 (51), pp 11007 - 11028, Dan W. Urry, "Physical Chemistry of Biological Free Energy Transduction As Demonstrated by Elastic Protein-Based Polymers"
If, before contraction, we add acid (H+) to the system, the force of contraction and, respectively, the work gained as the polymer reversibly contracts increase. Then, just before stretching, we remove the added H+ from the system: the force of contraction and, respectively, the work spent as we reversibly stretch the polymer decrease. At the end of the cycle, THE NET WORK GAINED FROM CONTRACTION AND STRETCHING IS POSITIVE.
So far things go against the second law of thermodynamics but the complete account requires that the net work gained from adding H+ to and removing H+ from the system be evaluated. If it is positive or zero, the second law is definitively violated. If it is negative, the second law is saved for the moment.
In the absence of the polymer, adding H+ to and removing the same amount of H+ from the system, in a reversible fashion, would amount to zero net work gained. The polymers designed by Urry, however, release H+ as they contract, and absorb H+ as we stretch them. It is easy (for people experienced in electrochemistry at least) to see that this makes the net work gained from reversibly adding H+ to and then removing the same amount of H+ from the system POSITIVE.
Conclusion: The reversible cycle:
1. The polymer is stretched. We add H+ to the system.
2. The polymers contracts and lifts a weight.
3. We remove the same amount of H+ from the system.
4. We stretch the polymer and restore the initial state of the system.
violates the second law of thermodynamics.
Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com
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Consider again a suspended and stretched spring but this time it is "chemical", that is, we have one of the macroscopic contractile polymers described by Dan Urry in:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jp972167t
J. Phys. Chem. B, 1997, 101 (51), pp 11007 - 11028, Dan W. Urry, "Physical Chemistry of Biological Free Energy Transduction As Demonstrated by Elastic Protein-Based Polymers"
If, before contraction, we add acid (H+) to the system, the force of contraction and, respectively, the work gained as the polymer reversibly contracts increase. Then, just before stretching, we remove the added H+ from the system: the force of contraction and, respectively, the work spent as we reversibly stretch the polymer decrease. At the end of the cycle, THE NET WORK GAINED FROM CONTRACTION AND STRETCHING IS POSITIVE.
So far things go against the second law of thermodynamics but the complete account requires that the net work gained from adding H+ to and removing H+ from the system be evaluated. If it is positive or zero, the second law is definitively violated. If it is negative, the second law is saved for the moment.
In the absence of the polymer, adding H+ to and removing the same amount of H+ from the system, in a reversible fashion, would amount to zero net work gained. The polymers designed by Urry, however, release H+ as they contract, and absorb H+ as we stretch them. It is easy (for people experienced in electrochemistry at least) to see that this makes the net work gained from reversibly adding H+ to and then removing the same amount of H+ from the system POSITIVE.
Conclusion: The reversible cycle:
1. The polymer is stretched. We add H+ to the system.
2. The polymers contracts and lifts a weight.
3. We remove the same amount of H+ from the system.
4. We stretch the polymer and restore the initial state of the system.
violates the second law of thermodynamics.
Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com
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If a constant-charge parallel-plate capacitor is totally immersed in water, the force of attraction between the plates is 80 times weaker than the force of attraction in vacuum. However, if we thrust some solid dielectric between the plates (not necessarily occupying the whole distance between them - it could be rather thin), the force of attraction becomes even greater than in vacuum. Accordingly, the following four-step cycle (carried out very slowly) violates the second law of thermodynamics:
1. Plates are immersed and fixed. We thrust the solid dielectric.
2. Plates get closer. We GAIN work.
3. We withdraw the solid dielectric.
4. Plates get apart; initial state restored. We SPEND work.
When the plates are immersed in a liquid dielectric (water), some additional pressure between them emerges, pushes them apart and so counteracts their electrostatic attraction (W. Panofsky, M. Phillips, Classical Electricity and Magnetism, Addison-Wesley, Reading, Massachusetts (1962), pp. 111-116). If the plates are vertical and only partially immersed, the same pressure forces the liquid between the plates to rise above the surface of the water pool (see fig. 6-7 on p. 112 in Panofsky's book). What if one punches a small hole in one of the plates, just above the surface of the pool? Will the lifted water leak through the hole and fall? If lifting is due to an additional pressure generated within the bulk, as assumed by Panofsky and Phillips, then water WILL leak through the hole and the second law will be violated. No matter how weak the waterfall is, in principle it can rotate a waterwheel...
The perpetuum mobile of the second kind described above will never become a money-spinner and will not solve the energy problems of humankind. However Nature may occasionally have used such (inefficient from an anthropocentric point of view) mecanisms and the knowledge of them could make us unexpectedly rich in some unconventional sense.
Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com
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1. Plates are immersed and fixed. We thrust the solid dielectric.
2. Plates get closer. We GAIN work.
3. We withdraw the solid dielectric.
4. Plates get apart; initial state restored. We SPEND work.
When the plates are immersed in a liquid dielectric (water), some additional pressure between them emerges, pushes them apart and so counteracts their electrostatic attraction (W. Panofsky, M. Phillips, Classical Electricity and Magnetism, Addison-Wesley, Reading, Massachusetts (1962), pp. 111-116). If the plates are vertical and only partially immersed, the same pressure forces the liquid between the plates to rise above the surface of the water pool (see fig. 6-7 on p. 112 in Panofsky's book). What if one punches a small hole in one of the plates, just above the surface of the pool? Will the lifted water leak through the hole and fall? If lifting is due to an additional pressure generated within the bulk, as assumed by Panofsky and Phillips, then water WILL leak through the hole and the second law will be violated. No matter how weak the waterfall is, in principle it can rotate a waterwheel...
The perpetuum mobile of the second kind described above will never become a money-spinner and will not solve the energy problems of humankind. However Nature may occasionally have used such (inefficient from an anthropocentric point of view) mecanisms and the knowledge of them could make us unexpectedly rich in some unconventional sense.
Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com
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Ian,
THe confusion about time is due to trying to incorporate the subjective perception of the present transitioning along a singular series of events into a fundamental physical theory. It is the non-linear thermodynamic activity which is constantly changing the configuration of what exists. So it is not the present which moves, but the events which coalesce and are replaced.
There is no absolute flow from past to future, or physically real geometry of spacetime, because time is not a vector, but a process. We are not traveling the fourth dimension from yesterday to tomorrow. Tomorrow becomes yesterday because of the cumulative activity of everything, including the rotation of this planet, relative to its star.
This rate of change is a function of the level of activity. If the earth were to spin faster, the units of time we call days would be shorter. This doesn't mean the earth found a shorter time dimension, but simply the level of activity is greater.
The reason I keep having to repeat this is because no one can refute it, but few seem willing to accept it. Isn't science about reason, not belief?
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THe confusion about time is due to trying to incorporate the subjective perception of the present transitioning along a singular series of events into a fundamental physical theory. It is the non-linear thermodynamic activity which is constantly changing the configuration of what exists. So it is not the present which moves, but the events which coalesce and are replaced.
There is no absolute flow from past to future, or physically real geometry of spacetime, because time is not a vector, but a process. We are not traveling the fourth dimension from yesterday to tomorrow. Tomorrow becomes yesterday because of the cumulative activity of everything, including the rotation of this planet, relative to its star.
This rate of change is a function of the level of activity. If the earth were to spin faster, the units of time we call days would be shorter. This doesn't mean the earth found a shorter time dimension, but simply the level of activity is greater.
The reason I keep having to repeat this is because no one can refute it, but few seem willing to accept it. Isn't science about reason, not belief?
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Actually, John, I completely agree with you and that was kind of the point of my post (though it was too short to really do it justice). So, yes, time is a process, not a fourth dimension. What's more, it's an emergent process (which is why oddities like faster-than-light neutrinos, if the data is true, are not surprising).
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Ian, do you try to say that special relativity is irrelevant, e.g. time dilation does not exist (or the travelling twin will return as old as the sedentary twin)?
Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com
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Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com
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Ian,
You do realize the foundation of the current cosmological model of an expanding universe, is based on that assumption of spacetime being "physically real?" With all the blocktime, wormholes, multiverses, inflation etc. as Frankensteinian appendages. Once time is relegated to an effect of thermal activity, then space is no longer physically malleable.
If time is to be considered simply a measure of thermodynamic activity, an aspect of temperature, this would be seriously significant for current physics.
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You do realize the foundation of the current cosmological model of an expanding universe, is based on that assumption of spacetime being "physically real?" With all the blocktime, wormholes, multiverses, inflation etc. as Frankensteinian appendages. Once time is relegated to an effect of thermal activity, then space is no longer physically malleable.
If time is to be considered simply a measure of thermodynamic activity, an aspect of temperature, this would be seriously significant for current physics.
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I should also note that demoting time to emergent effect would have far reaching social consequences as well, given the insistence on a singular narrative is also foundational to the monotheistic paradigm.
Then again, they keep saying the Aztecs predicted the end of time in 2012, not the end of the world.
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Then again, they keep saying the Aztecs predicted the end of time in 2012, not the end of the world.
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Ian,
I don't think there is a problem with duration being identical to time (Newtonian physics). If the universe is open, that's enough. The evidence that shows the universe on the boundary of open and closed (Omega ~ 1), as well as expanding and accelerating, may suggest a fruitful path toward an entropic gravity model (e.g., Jacobson, Verlinde, 't Hooft). Thermodynamic entropy itself, however, can be easily formulated for both open and closed systems.
So far as the question of what is a clock -- Einstein's definition, i.e., the rate of a physical process -- suits me.
Tom
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I don't think there is a problem with duration being identical to time (Newtonian physics). If the universe is open, that's enough. The evidence that shows the universe on the boundary of open and closed (Omega ~ 1), as well as expanding and accelerating, may suggest a fruitful path toward an entropic gravity model (e.g., Jacobson, Verlinde, 't Hooft). Thermodynamic entropy itself, however, can be easily formulated for both open and closed systems.
So far as the question of what is a clock -- Einstein's definition, i.e., the rate of a physical process -- suits me.
Tom
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Tom,
"So far as the question of what is a clock -- Einstein's definition, i.e., the rate of a physical process -- suits me."
So you agree that time is a measure of physical processes, much as temperature is a measure of physical processes? Not some part of some underlaying "physically real" geometry? No blocktime, just what is physically manifest, transitioning relative to thermodynamic processes?
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"So far as the question of what is a clock -- Einstein's definition, i.e., the rate of a physical process -- suits me."
So you agree that time is a measure of physical processes, much as temperature is a measure of physical processes? Not some part of some underlaying "physically real" geometry? No blocktime, just what is physically manifest, transitioning relative to thermodynamic processes?
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John,
I am not going into this with you again. Temperature is not an independent, physically real phenomenon in any context. Time, though not independent of space, is physically real in a continuum of spacetime.
Tom
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I am not going into this with you again. Temperature is not an independent, physically real phenomenon in any context. Time, though not independent of space, is physically real in a continuum of spacetime.
Tom
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I have some quantum problem for the Big Bang description with the entropy.
A quantum system have an entropy associated to the density function:
\Psi^*(r) ln \Psi(r)\Psi^*(r))
I think that near the Big Bang the entropy is infinite, a single quantum description using a Dirac delta function.
I think that is possible an entropy reduction after the Big Bang because there is a density function dispersion in a large space, and after a transformation of energy in elementary particles: in the usually word the entropy increase with particle emission (if you use a camera shot of the particle creation, and you reverse the shot, then this is the usual event in the space: particles decay).
The series of the quantum states
, \Psi(t_2), \cdots. \Psi(t_n))
have a series of energy
, E(t_2), \cdots. E(t_n))
and a series of entropy:
, S(t_2), \cdots. S(t_n))
I think that this series is crescent far away the Big Bang, but near the Big Bang can decrease.
We associate the entropy to the time evolution; if we take a macroscopic system, then if the entropy is constant, then the system have not time evolution (only fluctuation) like a box filled of an inert gas; but when we open the box, then we have a entropy increasing and a time evolution, and time direction.
The time evolution, and the time measure, don't depend on the entropy: if we measure the time with a pendulum we have not entropy evolution, only an energy evolution of the pendulum (the camera shot don't have a time direction for each elementary time measure).
If the time direction depend on the entropy, the direction near the Big Bang is reversed, so that there is future to the past evolution?
Saluti
Domenico
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A quantum system have an entropy associated to the density function:
I think that near the Big Bang the entropy is infinite, a single quantum description using a Dirac delta function.
I think that is possible an entropy reduction after the Big Bang because there is a density function dispersion in a large space, and after a transformation of energy in elementary particles: in the usually word the entropy increase with particle emission (if you use a camera shot of the particle creation, and you reverse the shot, then this is the usual event in the space: particles decay).
The series of the quantum states
have a series of energy
and a series of entropy:
I think that this series is crescent far away the Big Bang, but near the Big Bang can decrease.
We associate the entropy to the time evolution; if we take a macroscopic system, then if the entropy is constant, then the system have not time evolution (only fluctuation) like a box filled of an inert gas; but when we open the box, then we have a entropy increasing and a time evolution, and time direction.
The time evolution, and the time measure, don't depend on the entropy: if we measure the time with a pendulum we have not entropy evolution, only an energy evolution of the pendulum (the camera shot don't have a time direction for each elementary time measure).
If the time direction depend on the entropy, the direction near the Big Bang is reversed, so that there is future to the past evolution?
Saluti
Domenico
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Hi Domenico,
You know the thermodynamical diffusion and the universal cooling of evolution shows the road.
This entropy is simple, it is the maximun universal energy.and this entropy is everywhere at the same maximum. Like an absolute in physical evolution. It does not exist pseudo multiverses or this or that. Our Universe and its entropical diffusion rests rational and deterministic. The time is irreversible and constant. The complexity of the mass is in 3d. And this mass evolves at all momment. The duration is a result of a cause, in my model, the rotating spheres. This duration is linked with the gravitation and the space time evolution.
The BB is a spherical distribution of mass where the cooling complexificates the mass......we have not reversibilities or decoherences there.
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You know the thermodynamical diffusion and the universal cooling of evolution shows the road.
This entropy is simple, it is the maximun universal energy.and this entropy is everywhere at the same maximum. Like an absolute in physical evolution. It does not exist pseudo multiverses or this or that. Our Universe and its entropical diffusion rests rational and deterministic. The time is irreversible and constant. The complexity of the mass is in 3d. And this mass evolves at all momment. The duration is a result of a cause, in my model, the rotating spheres. This duration is linked with the gravitation and the space time evolution.
The BB is a spherical distribution of mass where the cooling complexificates the mass......we have not reversibilities or decoherences there.
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John,
Spacetime is indeed a real, independent physical phenomenon. This is well understood in both theory and experiment, contrary to all the half baked crackpot nonsense circulating in this forum.
Tom
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Spacetime is indeed a real, independent physical phenomenon. This is well understood in both theory and experiment, contrary to all the half baked crackpot nonsense circulating in this forum.
Tom
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Tom,
"This is well understood in both theory and experiment, contrary to all the half baked crackpot nonsense circulating in this forum."
It's not as well understood as you think it is. It doesn't explain:
1. how particles are attached to space-time;
2. how gravity and the standard model are unified;
3. how causality is transmitted.
The space-time continuum is a source of "half baked crackpot nonsense" because it leads experts to believe in time travel. In fact, the scientific community is itself a source of nonsense; e.g., a multiverse of infinite identical universes.
You don't have to reply to my comments, Tom.
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"This is well understood in both theory and experiment, contrary to all the half baked crackpot nonsense circulating in this forum."
It's not as well understood as you think it is. It doesn't explain:
1. how particles are attached to space-time;
2. how gravity and the standard model are unified;
3. how causality is transmitted.
The space-time continuum is a source of "half baked crackpot nonsense" because it leads experts to believe in time travel. In fact, the scientific community is itself a source of nonsense; e.g., a multiverse of infinite identical universes.
You don't have to reply to my comments, Tom.
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Ultimately, the full and proper understanding and involvement of time include instantaneity. There is no getting around this.
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Frank
But instantaneity of what? There was one existent state. We only know of it via one, or more, observations. So we can take one observation, understand the circumstances within which it occurred and extrapolate when that event occurred. Two observations means we can do it again, and additionally, we can compare differences in circumstance, etc. In the latter we are able to compare timings. It is all about timing, as manifest in the observations which enable us to calculate the time at which the event occurred. Indeed, it is all about timing/duration, because time does not exist, what you are comparing is different rates of change in different attributes of existent entities.
Paul
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But instantaneity of what? There was one existent state. We only know of it via one, or more, observations. So we can take one observation, understand the circumstances within which it occurred and extrapolate when that event occurred. Two observations means we can do it again, and additionally, we can compare differences in circumstance, etc. In the latter we are able to compare timings. It is all about timing, as manifest in the observations which enable us to calculate the time at which the event occurred. Indeed, it is all about timing/duration, because time does not exist, what you are comparing is different rates of change in different attributes of existent entities.
Paul
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Dear Paul and Frank,
Instantaneity = Total Simultaneity = Steady Big Bang State.
Universal I or singularity is the source of them all.
Love,
Sridattadev.
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Instantaneity = Total Simultaneity = Steady Big Bang State.
Universal I or singularity is the source of them all.
Love,
Sridattadev.
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Tom,
"You don't think Newtonian physics is seriously flawed, since you correctly identified general relativity as its extension from a well-defined limit of the Newtonian domain. So how could you consider GR to be seriously flawed? Since the theory is mathematically complete--i.e., independent of experiment--either it is correct, as experimental validation informs us, or all of classical physics is seriously flawed."
The issue of the "incorrectness" of the present physical models is deeper than that.
First, as I have been saying, the development of math. began with geometry and measurement. (We then discovered that there are many geometries.) And, of course, GR and QM are based on our current understanding of "geometries".
But it may turn out, as I have been suggesting, that *all* our present concepts of "geometry" are *physically* inadequate. I.e. we might be in the midst of a contemporary version of epicycles-like *computational* models.
Of course, for the vast majority of scientists this possibility is so scary as to be, practically, "invisible".
By the way, I wouldn't have been bold enough to suggest the above possibility if the framework I'm developing hasn't suggested this possibility.
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"You don't think Newtonian physics is seriously flawed, since you correctly identified general relativity as its extension from a well-defined limit of the Newtonian domain. So how could you consider GR to be seriously flawed? Since the theory is mathematically complete--i.e., independent of experiment--either it is correct, as experimental validation informs us, or all of classical physics is seriously flawed."
The issue of the "incorrectness" of the present physical models is deeper than that.
First, as I have been saying, the development of math. began with geometry and measurement. (We then discovered that there are many geometries.) And, of course, GR and QM are based on our current understanding of "geometries".
But it may turn out, as I have been suggesting, that *all* our present concepts of "geometry" are *physically* inadequate. I.e. we might be in the midst of a contemporary version of epicycles-like *computational* models.
Of course, for the vast majority of scientists this possibility is so scary as to be, practically, "invisible".
By the way, I wouldn't have been bold enough to suggest the above possibility if the framework I'm developing hasn't suggested this possibility.
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You could be right, Lev.
Unless there is a demonstrable demarcation between mathematics and physics, however, I want to see how far the mathematics goes. If the horizon turns back on itself, there may be no difference at all.
Tom
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Unless there is a demonstrable demarcation between mathematics and physics, however, I want to see how far the mathematics goes. If the horizon turns back on itself, there may be no difference at all.
Tom
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The issue is not the "demarcation between mathematics and physics" but the needed new conception of math. based not on the conventional geometric, point-based concepts but on the new concept of (temporal) event-based structures, which are even more universal than the former.
*There are no points in nature, there are temporally related informational events, which are of non-spatial origin.*
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*There are no points in nature, there are temporally related informational events, which are of non-spatial origin.*
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Lev, that's just the kind of continuum that Joy describes -- a topological structure (and therefore conveying a different meaning for "distance" than conventional geometry) with a nondegenerate torsion feature that disallows point set geometry yet permits classical time reverse symmetry.
String theory, as well, denies point particles in favor of a field description.
And I still agree with you that information theory holds the key. I just don't think we need to count new mathematical methods out.
Tom
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String theory, as well, denies point particles in favor of a field description.
And I still agree with you that information theory holds the key. I just don't think we need to count new mathematical methods out.
Tom
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When considering the validity of entropy for proving an overall direction to time, it might be useful to consider the extent to which entropy is a subset of punctuated equilibrium. As entropy only applies to a closed set and its tendency to settle into a stable, relatively non-dynamic median state, this should be considered in the context of unknown inputs that cannot be ruled out, given there is no proof any closed set doesn't exist within some larger, unbounded, infinite context. In this context, entropy would only be an example of built up legacy costs and their consequence of weakening the frame in question, relative to more dynamic frames.
Time is linear for the individual frame, as it goes from start to finish, but the larger dynamic would seem to be cyclical, as it conserves and reuses energy on unbounded scales.
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Time is linear for the individual frame, as it goes from start to finish, but the larger dynamic would seem to be cyclical, as it conserves and reuses energy on unbounded scales.
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Dear John,
Absolutely true. Infinite equilibrium you have mentioned is the singularity or universal I. This state is not only relative infinite but also absolute equality. Please see some posts above for the links explaining the singularity.
Love,
Sridattaev.
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Absolutely true. Infinite equilibrium you have mentioned is the singularity or universal I. This state is not only relative infinite but also absolute equality. Please see some posts above for the links explaining the singularity.
Love,
Sridattaev.
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Sridattadev,
I don't think the singularity is a viable concept. A universal state would be a state of equilibrium, not an ultimate focal point. I have long been making the argument that the Big Bang theory is extremely patchwork and all the evidence points to an optical explanation for redshift. The background radiation is better explained as coming from light that has been shifted completely off the visible spectrum. Suffice to say, arguing against it amounts to beating one's head against a wall, so I'm mostly waiting for further evidence of galactic structures too far and too old to be contained by the age limits of BBt. By any reasonable calculation, they already exist, since the oldest observed galaxies are now at 13.2 billion lightyears, so that means they would have had to coalesce out of the inflated medium and ignite in 500 million years, but the credulity of the cosmological community is close to limitless. So it will have to take examination of that background radiation and discovery of signatures of sources beyond the light horizon and not just a uniform medium, to raise issues which cannot be ignored.
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I don't think the singularity is a viable concept. A universal state would be a state of equilibrium, not an ultimate focal point. I have long been making the argument that the Big Bang theory is extremely patchwork and all the evidence points to an optical explanation for redshift. The background radiation is better explained as coming from light that has been shifted completely off the visible spectrum. Suffice to say, arguing against it amounts to beating one's head against a wall, so I'm mostly waiting for further evidence of galactic structures too far and too old to be contained by the age limits of BBt. By any reasonable calculation, they already exist, since the oldest observed galaxies are now at 13.2 billion lightyears, so that means they would have had to coalesce out of the inflated medium and ignite in 500 million years, but the credulity of the cosmological community is close to limitless. So it will have to take examination of that background radiation and discovery of signatures of sources beyond the light horizon and not just a uniform medium, to raise issues which cannot be ignored.
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Dear John,
Precisely the point that I am conveying to the scientific community, to reconsider what singularity really means. Singularity is not just an infinite focal point which lies inside a black hole as per the current understanding by several relativiistic theories. Some relativistic theories which could not fully comprehend the meaning of singularity are totally avoding this concept and looking at multiverses to explain away this unexplained state inside a black hole and at the beginning of big bang. We can imagine how many ever theories we want to explain what we can see, but the truth is only one - singularity - that we all know inherently. Scientists are trying to use several non zero constants to explain the observable unverse. There is only one absolute constant - zero and everything relatively is absolutely equal to this constant. Singularity in mathematics is that zero, verbally translated it should not exist as it means absolutely nothing. To a self realized being, this absolutely nothing is the one's self that gives meaning to relatively everything. No matter where one goes in the universe or multiverse one will find a singularity of one self or I, hence singularity is universal I.
Singularity is that all points in space-time are absolutely equal, all else we see with our senses and process in our brains is an illusion. This equilibrium state is eternal and is beyond any begining and any end. We are all capable of experiencing this state in our heart and this state of absolute awareness is full of joy. Singularity is the "absolute" quantum state of everything and nothing.
Love,
Sridattadev.
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Precisely the point that I am conveying to the scientific community, to reconsider what singularity really means. Singularity is not just an infinite focal point which lies inside a black hole as per the current understanding by several relativiistic theories. Some relativistic theories which could not fully comprehend the meaning of singularity are totally avoding this concept and looking at multiverses to explain away this unexplained state inside a black hole and at the beginning of big bang. We can imagine how many ever theories we want to explain what we can see, but the truth is only one - singularity - that we all know inherently. Scientists are trying to use several non zero constants to explain the observable unverse. There is only one absolute constant - zero and everything relatively is absolutely equal to this constant. Singularity in mathematics is that zero, verbally translated it should not exist as it means absolutely nothing. To a self realized being, this absolutely nothing is the one's self that gives meaning to relatively everything. No matter where one goes in the universe or multiverse one will find a singularity of one self or I, hence singularity is universal I.
Singularity is that all points in space-time are absolutely equal, all else we see with our senses and process in our brains is an illusion. This equilibrium state is eternal and is beyond any begining and any end. We are all capable of experiencing this state in our heart and this state of absolute awareness is full of joy. Singularity is the "absolute" quantum state of everything and nothing.
Love,
Sridattadev.
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rest frame
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Tom,
"The rest frame of compound objects (such as a fluid, or a solid made of many vibrating atoms) is taken to be the frame of reference in which the average momentum of the particles which make up the substance is zero (the particles may individually have momentum, but collectively have no net momentum). The rest frame of a container of gas, for example, would be the rest frame of the container itself, in which the gas molecules are not at rest, but are no more likely to be traveling in one direction as another. The rest frame of a river would be the frame of an unpowered boat, in which the mean velocity of the water is zero. This frame is also called the center-of-mass frame, or center-of-momentum frame."
So what if the frame of reference is infinite?
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"The rest frame of compound objects (such as a fluid, or a solid made of many vibrating atoms) is taken to be the frame of reference in which the average momentum of the particles which make up the substance is zero (the particles may individually have momentum, but collectively have no net momentum). The rest frame of a container of gas, for example, would be the rest frame of the container itself, in which the gas molecules are not at rest, but are no more likely to be traveling in one direction as another. The rest frame of a river would be the frame of an unpowered boat, in which the mean velocity of the water is zero. This frame is also called the center-of-mass frame, or center-of-momentum frame."
So what if the frame of reference is infinite?
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Tom and John,
I suppose that is why we call death - Rest in Peace.
We can also achieve this absolute rest frame by being in Love when we are still alive.
Be in Love to Rest in Peace.
Love,
Sridattadev.
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I suppose that is why we call death - Rest in Peace.
We can also achieve this absolute rest frame by being in Love when we are still alive.
Be in Love to Rest in Peace.
Love,
Sridattadev.
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To my fqxi friends,
Ian's post prompts me to respond – after a long hiatus!
Entropy, time and The Second Law of Thermodynamics featured prominently in my last essay, “A World Without Quanta?”. I wont repeat arguments and derivations found there. Only make the following points:
1)Physical time is 'duration' (t-s) and not 'instantiation' (t=s)
2)Entropy is the measure of the 'amount of evolution' of a system. The fundamental relationship between entropy and time is ΔS = r Δt , where r is the 'rate of evolution' of the system (positive or negative).
3)The Second Law of Thermodynamics is about physical time, and not entropy. It simply says that for a physical process to occur, a (positive) duration of time must lapse.
4)Boltzmann's Entropy Equation is mathematically equivalent to Planck's Law.
Constantinos
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Ian's post prompts me to respond – after a long hiatus!
Entropy, time and The Second Law of Thermodynamics featured prominently in my last essay, “A World Without Quanta?”. I wont repeat arguments and derivations found there. Only make the following points:
1)Physical time is 'duration' (t-s) and not 'instantiation' (t=s)
2)Entropy is the measure of the 'amount of evolution' of a system. The fundamental relationship between entropy and time is ΔS = r Δt , where r is the 'rate of evolution' of the system (positive or negative).
3)The Second Law of Thermodynamics is about physical time, and not entropy. It simply says that for a physical process to occur, a (positive) duration of time must lapse.
4)Boltzmann's Entropy Equation is mathematically equivalent to Planck's Law.
Constantinos
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Do you think that the analog universe as is created by our consciousness, has a discrete basis ? the discrete basis are the grains of our reality, these grains are combined to life-lines with the assistance of our consciousness, that is why we can experience the second law of Thermodynamics. Entropy is the explained as the grade of Chaos (formless void) in our Cosmos (ORDER), but attention it is only our perception of order, being an unique one !!!
keep on thinking free
Wilhelmus
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keep on thinking free
Wilhelmus
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Wilhelmus,
Thank you for your comment.
We cannot know 'what is' the Universe. Only our 'measurements of what is'. So fundamentally, physics should be about 'measurement'. 'Knowing what is' in the past was called 'metaphysics' . Science arose in large part as reaction to metaphysical speculation and the subsequent 'religious wars of believers'. Human nature always finds ways of coming back to the same fundamental questions. And always risks making the same fundamental mistake of taking 'theory' as 'real'. Often called 'idolatry'. In the current debates among physicists, you can find traces of the metaphysical. Our best guide must always be our 'senses'. Much of what physicists claim are non-sensical. It is an interesting intellectual game, but ruptures us from our experience. 'Go' is more honest. It has no victims though it is a 'simulation of war'. Modern 'human being' is the victim of modern physical theory.
Constantinos
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Thank you for your comment.
We cannot know 'what is' the Universe. Only our 'measurements of what is'. So fundamentally, physics should be about 'measurement'. 'Knowing what is' in the past was called 'metaphysics' . Science arose in large part as reaction to metaphysical speculation and the subsequent 'religious wars of believers'. Human nature always finds ways of coming back to the same fundamental questions. And always risks making the same fundamental mistake of taking 'theory' as 'real'. Often called 'idolatry'. In the current debates among physicists, you can find traces of the metaphysical. Our best guide must always be our 'senses'. Much of what physicists claim are non-sensical. It is an interesting intellectual game, but ruptures us from our experience. 'Go' is more honest. It has no victims though it is a 'simulation of war'. Modern 'human being' is the victim of modern physical theory.
Constantinos
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Dear Constantinos,
To what extent do you agree with NoDiscreteness.pdf by the distinguished FQXi member prof. Zeh?
Regards,
Eckard
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To what extent do you agree with NoDiscreteness.pdf by the distinguished FQXi member prof. Zeh?
Regards,
Eckard
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Tom (and everyone),
"I don't think you mean to argue that Newtonian dynamics and relativity aren't *physical* theories. These are, as I said and can easily defend, mathematically complete theories; i.e., every element of the mathematical theory corresponds to every element of the physics that the theory describes."
I am prepared to argue that by far not "every element of the mathematical theory corresponds to" physical reality. For example, take such critical concepts as velocity and acceleration: there is nothing in Nature that is truly "instantaneous" so that these concepts are the artifacts of the mathematical machinery. Moreover, I suggest that under the conventional math. *most* so-called "physical" concepts do not have true counterparts in Nature, and in this sense are not truly "physical", but are simply mathematical concepts.
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"I don't think you mean to argue that Newtonian dynamics and relativity aren't *physical* theories. These are, as I said and can easily defend, mathematically complete theories; i.e., every element of the mathematical theory corresponds to every element of the physics that the theory describes."
I am prepared to argue that by far not "every element of the mathematical theory corresponds to" physical reality. For example, take such critical concepts as velocity and acceleration: there is nothing in Nature that is truly "instantaneous" so that these concepts are the artifacts of the mathematical machinery. Moreover, I suggest that under the conventional math. *most* so-called "physical" concepts do not have true counterparts in Nature, and in this sense are not truly "physical", but are simply mathematical concepts.
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Is gravitational time dilation a "physical" concept? That is, do the intrinsic rates of clocks vary with the gravitational potential? Banesh Hoffmann seems to give a negative answer:
http://www.amazon.com/Relativity-Its-Roots-Banesh-Hoffmann/d
p/0486406768
Banesh Hoffmann: "In an accelerated sky laboratory, and therefore also in the corresponding earth laboratory, the frequence of arrival of light pulses is lower than the ticking rate of the upper clocks EVEN THOUGH ALL THE CLOCKS GO AT THE SAME RATE. (...) As a result the experimenter at the ceiling of the sky laboratory will see with his own eyes that the floor clock is going at a slower rate than the ceiling clock - EVEN THOUGH, AS I HAVE STRESSED, BOTH ARE GOING AT THE SAME RATE. (...) THE GRAVITATIONAL RED SHIFT DOES NOT ARISE FROM CHANGES IN THE INTRINSIC RATES OF CLOCKS. It arises from WHAT BEFALLS LIGHT SIGNALS AS THEY TRAVERSE SPACE AND TIME IN THE PRESENCE OF GRAVITATION."
However 99% of Einsteinians teach that the intrinsic rates of clocks do vary with the gravitational potential, that is, the gravitational time dilation is a "physical" concept:
http://student.fizika.org/~jsisko/Knjige/Klasicna%20
Mehanika/David%20Morin/CH13.PDF
David Morin: "The equivalence principle has a striking consequence concerning the behavior of clocks in a gravitational field. It implies that higher clocks run faster than lower clocks. If you put a watch on top of a tower, and then stand on the ground, you will see the watch on the tower tick faster than an identical watch on your wrist. When you take the watch down and compare it to the one on your wrist, it will show more time elapsed."
Where is the truth?
Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com
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http://www.amazon.com/Relativity-Its-Roots-Banesh-Hoffmann/d
p/0486406768
Banesh Hoffmann: "In an accelerated sky laboratory, and therefore also in the corresponding earth laboratory, the frequence of arrival of light pulses is lower than the ticking rate of the upper clocks EVEN THOUGH ALL THE CLOCKS GO AT THE SAME RATE. (...) As a result the experimenter at the ceiling of the sky laboratory will see with his own eyes that the floor clock is going at a slower rate than the ceiling clock - EVEN THOUGH, AS I HAVE STRESSED, BOTH ARE GOING AT THE SAME RATE. (...) THE GRAVITATIONAL RED SHIFT DOES NOT ARISE FROM CHANGES IN THE INTRINSIC RATES OF CLOCKS. It arises from WHAT BEFALLS LIGHT SIGNALS AS THEY TRAVERSE SPACE AND TIME IN THE PRESENCE OF GRAVITATION."
However 99% of Einsteinians teach that the intrinsic rates of clocks do vary with the gravitational potential, that is, the gravitational time dilation is a "physical" concept:
http://student.fizika.org/~jsisko/Knjige/Klasicna%20
Mehanika/David%20Morin/CH13.PDF
David Morin: "The equivalence principle has a striking consequence concerning the behavior of clocks in a gravitational field. It implies that higher clocks run faster than lower clocks. If you put a watch on top of a tower, and then stand on the ground, you will see the watch on the tower tick faster than an identical watch on your wrist. When you take the watch down and compare it to the one on your wrist, it will show more time elapsed."
Where is the truth?
Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com
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Pentcho,
Both are relativistic effects. Gravity does effectively slow the clock rate. Though I might argue, not because of some four dimensional geometry dictating how fast the clock functions, but because gravity is equivalent to acceleration and acceleration slows the atomic processes, since the internal processes and external velocities cannot add up to being faster than light. So the clock does tick slower.
While the limits to which light can transmit information distorts perception of time in other frames.
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Both are relativistic effects. Gravity does effectively slow the clock rate. Though I might argue, not because of some four dimensional geometry dictating how fast the clock functions, but because gravity is equivalent to acceleration and acceleration slows the atomic processes, since the internal processes and external velocities cannot add up to being faster than light. So the clock does tick slower.
While the limits to which light can transmit information distorts perception of time in other frames.
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Einstein said in 1911 that gravitational time dilation would take place even in a HOMOGENEOUS gravitational field. This means that the two clocks (at the top and at the bottom of the tower) are in EXACTLY THE SAME immediate environment (experience EXACTLY THE SAME gravitational field) and yet one of them runs faster than the other. Clearly such an effect without any cause is absurd so Stephen Hawking, just like Banesh Hoffmann, hints at the REAL effect: As light travels upward in the earth's gravitational field, it loses SPEED:
http://www.amazon.com/Brief-History-Time-Stephen-Hawking/dp/
0553380168
Stephen Hawking: "Another prediction of general relativity is that time should appear to slower near a massive body like the earth. This is because there is a relation between the energy of light and its frequency (that is, the number of waves of light per second): the greater the energy, the higher frequency. As light travels upward in the earth's gravitational field, it loses energy, and so its frequency goes down. (This means that the length of time between one wave crest and the next goes up.) To someone high up, it would appear that everything down below was making longer to happen. This prediction was tested in 1962, using a pair of very accurate clocks mounted at the top and bottom of a water tower. The clock at the bottom, which was nearer the earth, was found to run slower, in exact agreement with general relativity."
Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com
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http://www.amazon.com/Brief-History-Time-Stephen-Hawking/dp/
0553380168
Stephen Hawking: "Another prediction of general relativity is that time should appear to slower near a massive body like the earth. This is because there is a relation between the energy of light and its frequency (that is, the number of waves of light per second): the greater the energy, the higher frequency. As light travels upward in the earth's gravitational field, it loses energy, and so its frequency goes down. (This means that the length of time between one wave crest and the next goes up.) To someone high up, it would appear that everything down below was making longer to happen. This prediction was tested in 1962, using a pair of very accurate clocks mounted at the top and bottom of a water tower. The clock at the bottom, which was nearer the earth, was found to run slower, in exact agreement with general relativity."
Pentcho Valev pvalev@yahoo.com
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